Rob
Re: fast arch-mages.
I guess you didn't do the math? Yes, you can buy new circles every level, if you wait a level, bank all those skillpoints, and then start buying. Then you have to wait one more time. Banking skillpoints is necessary, as you'd want PCs to be able to, e.g., start as mundanes, and then buy priest potential like at 5th level. Just do the math; I'm surprised you didn't already. It's easy to become an arch-mage- a system mechanic that rewards powergaming.
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Re: random char gen.
Actually Mark, the burden is on you to say why you'd want chargen to be random. Argument from precedent doesn't hold up. Most contemporary games have thrown out that way in place of something more fair. That's ultimately what's going on here: fairness. If a system isn't centrally about fairness, it's a system for powergaming.
Buying up ability scores is not a workable solution. The thing is, imagine two players A and B. A's char has lower stats than B. So A has less skillpoints. And then he's got to spend some to try to catch up and balance B? He'll be further behind.
Why do you want a system that's fundamentally, from the first step, unbalanced?
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Re: endurance vs charisma.
Because endurance is boring. So are strength and agility, but you don't really have a choice for those two stats. Endurance is even more boring.
1) If you decide to stick with random char gen, then regardless of whatever I'd roll for END, it doesn't really inform me about who this new PC is. But if I roll a low or high CHA, suddenly there's a broader aspect to my guy.
2) Specific cases can be invented for any one particular system point, so your priest of pestilence thing doesn't hold up. Many of the horrible gods in D&D still had a high CHA... it's not about how nice or pretty you are, it's about how commanding you are. Priests, certainly, have to be able to attract followers, at least in general.
3) If you decide to keep the two main types of magic, there's again a symmetry breaking. Why do mages need a high INT? What about the crazy kinds of mages who don't read books and just blast guys? (Same kind of argument as the prieest of pestilence one.) More seriously, by not having a stat for priests, and making priest magic cheaper than mage magic, you're saying that it's not as good. That essentially priest magic is for healing. No, they should be systemically similar.
4) It just all depends on what kind of game you want to make, and what kinds of things are easy to do (as opposed to house ruling). Too much relegation to: 'well we can let the DM and PCs decide for themselves' and soon there's not even a point of making a system. Why have skills like Military Expertise? Why, e.g., would you have a school for demon summoning or charm spells? Serious CHA business. What sort of skills are END skills?
But you're right, there need to be strong CHA skills. Not just, oh I rolled CHA and the king gives me his sceptre. What about Intimidation, where a fighter could momentarily gain an advantage over weaker foes, analogus to 1E fighters getting multiple attacks on 1 HD creatures? Leadership, so that we can bring back henchmen and torch bearers, which are sort of neat. Haggling yeah for money. You could divide up Knowledge skills... Local Knowledge and Streetwise could be CHA instead of INT. It's WHO you know, not WHAT you know. Remember 'Contacts' from Shadowrun? That was a cool mechanic, and started the PCs immediately with making friends rather than killing monsters and making enemies. Hang In There! A CHA skill to keep your friends alive and fighting at 0 to -3 hp. Fast Talk, a skill that improves the efficacy of pick pockets, illusions and charm spells. Without these skills, and with END, the emphasis of the game is on the dungeon and monsters, not the town and NPCs.
5) What sort of characters would be nobility? The foppish prince, uh, has what sort of stats? He's a 1st level dweeb, so he can't have tons of skills, besides he's sat around on a throne drinking tea and talking to ladies. END, STR, AGI, IQ don't do this guy. CHA does.
I guess you didn't do the math? Yes, you can buy new circles every level, if you wait a level, bank all those skillpoints, and then start buying. Then you have to wait one more time. Banking skillpoints is necessary, as you'd want PCs to be able to, e.g., start as mundanes, and then buy priest potential like at 5th level. Just do the math; I'm surprised you didn't already. It's easy to become an arch-mage- a system mechanic that rewards powergaming.
...
Re: random char gen.
Actually Mark, the burden is on you to say why you'd want chargen to be random. Argument from precedent doesn't hold up. Most contemporary games have thrown out that way in place of something more fair. That's ultimately what's going on here: fairness. If a system isn't centrally about fairness, it's a system for powergaming.
Buying up ability scores is not a workable solution. The thing is, imagine two players A and B. A's char has lower stats than B. So A has less skillpoints. And then he's got to spend some to try to catch up and balance B? He'll be further behind.
Why do you want a system that's fundamentally, from the first step, unbalanced?
...
Re: endurance vs charisma.
Because endurance is boring. So are strength and agility, but you don't really have a choice for those two stats. Endurance is even more boring.
1) If you decide to stick with random char gen, then regardless of whatever I'd roll for END, it doesn't really inform me about who this new PC is. But if I roll a low or high CHA, suddenly there's a broader aspect to my guy.
2) Specific cases can be invented for any one particular system point, so your priest of pestilence thing doesn't hold up. Many of the horrible gods in D&D still had a high CHA... it's not about how nice or pretty you are, it's about how commanding you are. Priests, certainly, have to be able to attract followers, at least in general.
3) If you decide to keep the two main types of magic, there's again a symmetry breaking. Why do mages need a high INT? What about the crazy kinds of mages who don't read books and just blast guys? (Same kind of argument as the prieest of pestilence one.) More seriously, by not having a stat for priests, and making priest magic cheaper than mage magic, you're saying that it's not as good. That essentially priest magic is for healing. No, they should be systemically similar.
4) It just all depends on what kind of game you want to make, and what kinds of things are easy to do (as opposed to house ruling). Too much relegation to: 'well we can let the DM and PCs decide for themselves' and soon there's not even a point of making a system. Why have skills like Military Expertise? Why, e.g., would you have a school for demon summoning or charm spells? Serious CHA business. What sort of skills are END skills?
But you're right, there need to be strong CHA skills. Not just, oh I rolled CHA and the king gives me his sceptre. What about Intimidation, where a fighter could momentarily gain an advantage over weaker foes, analogus to 1E fighters getting multiple attacks on 1 HD creatures? Leadership, so that we can bring back henchmen and torch bearers, which are sort of neat. Haggling yeah for money. You could divide up Knowledge skills... Local Knowledge and Streetwise could be CHA instead of INT. It's WHO you know, not WHAT you know. Remember 'Contacts' from Shadowrun? That was a cool mechanic, and started the PCs immediately with making friends rather than killing monsters and making enemies. Hang In There! A CHA skill to keep your friends alive and fighting at 0 to -3 hp. Fast Talk, a skill that improves the efficacy of pick pockets, illusions and charm spells. Without these skills, and with END, the emphasis of the game is on the dungeon and monsters, not the town and NPCs.
5) What sort of characters would be nobility? The foppish prince, uh, has what sort of stats? He's a 1st level dweeb, so he can't have tons of skills, besides he's sat around on a throne drinking tea and talking to ladies. END, STR, AGI, IQ don't do this guy. CHA does.
posted by Rob @ 10:56 AM
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