Mark

No, still not satisfied.

Mark

Ok, I think I got it:















Each God centers on one domain. The priest's 'reach' is 4 for 1st-3rd circle, 3 for 4th-6th circle, and 2 for 7th and 8th.

Maybe...

Rob, your pentagram just inspired me, what about something like this:

















The placement and domains might not be right, but basically, a deity centers on one domain, and has a certain 'reach' around the circle. Something like a reach of 4 for 1st-4th, and a reach of 2 for 5th-8th. So, a deity centered on wrath excludes anointment and protection for 1-4th, and possession, revelation, prot. anoint, restoration and summoning for 6-8th.

Like I said, maybe we need to alter the domains and reaches, but I think the general idea is simple, and easy to fit into a homemade pantheon.

Thoughts?

Uh oh, here we go... -Mark

Rob, I was thinking save-(priest's circle), too. I dig it.

As for spell acquisition, it's books for hedge and hermetic, prayer for priests, and meditation/communion for ritualists. -Maybe ritualists should have these prayer books or nefarious tomes. We'll do them after priests.

Ideally, I think having God based spells would be best. However, as great as the pantheon we could provide would be, it just might not fit the GM's game. I also dislike the 'systems' out there that seem really more like 'worlds'.

Maybe we should make a better way for GMs to select which spells might fit the deity they create. Maybe domains should be more specific, or maybe there should be a different classification altogether. -It might be best if we rethink this.

Right now, I am thinking of a branching system, or a sort of ven diagram, based on ethos.

As for your new 'elements' Rob, I don't see why we can't work this into ritual. I think ritual should be f'ed up stuff.
---

Paul, trying to hit isn't as bad as it seems. Rob and I made some fighters, and we basically bought up our agility and weapon mastery. -That alone can give you up to +6 to hit, which means you hit a dodge 20 30% of the time. Also, there are multiple attacks each round, and the possibility for magic weapons, spells, and special attacks like pause and study, calculated strike, etc. Besides that, it's all relative. You'll notice the monster dodge scores aren't off the charts. In fact, our guys made surprisingly short work of a minotaur going solo at something like 8th. Still, it's something to be mindful of, and not too hard to fix. Thanks.

Anyway, if there are multiple voices, I am going to have to keep us on topic forcibly. I just don't have time to discuss multiple points at once. -I'd rather be writing the thing.

Right now, it's all about priest magic.

paul

It seems like fighters in your system have a very poor chance of hitting things. The 6th level fighters you have would stand a poor chance of hitting most of the monsters you have created and when they did they would have their damage reduced. It seems like fights would take a long time, and that it would be difficult for parties to attack groups that consist of much more than minor creatures even at high levels. The spell casters seem to have a better chance of doing damage, and maybe even better damage. I'm just worried that if mundanes can't buy up their base attack they will not be equipped to handle foes that people would like to fight at higher levels.

On a related note

Can we dispense with the whole Air/Earth/Fire/Water elemental system? It's tired. It should be retired. It's classic, sure, but we can maybe do better, or at least more interesting. I was thinking something along the lines of Blood/Ice/Metal(Iron)/Shadow/Thorns. A bit edgier.

We can use the Magic five-element-pentagram-affinity system:

God damn it

So, first off, settle on spell acquisition. Seems like Hedge and Hermetic have books that they can memorize from- i.e., they can't select from any spell on the list. Ritual magic is the same? Faith magic could be different- you can pick any spell on the entire list. (Just like 1E.) Or not, it's fine if Priests have 'prayer books'- actually, I like that (with prayerbooks) better.

Also, how are spells recovered? You just have to get some sleep?

But yeah, definitely have Faith magic be more vague. Like 'Cantrip' and 'Wish' vague.

I like two classes of healing magic- fast and slow. Many Faith spells should be augmenting and protective. Don't be afraid to let healing suck though. I think that'd be great.

The save modifier thing is fine.

...

Okay, what about Faith Magic being tethered to a god? That's the main difference- there's a direct power providing the source. You can't just go and pick up another temple's prayerbook and start casting the spells. Low circle priests, it doesn't matter so much, but certainly beyond 4th and 5th circle, it's a specific god providing the magic. How to codify Faith Magic in terms of god affinity?

Maybe the save modifier (all spells at -(your circle) instead of -(spell circle)) is good. Just like a fighter can automatically pick up weapon mastery and this translates in-game to tons of practice, buying spell circles translates to doing the good work of your god.

What about something more radical, even, though? How about we just come up with a bunch of gods, each with their own (somewhat overlapping) spell lists? All priests share the same 1st-3rd circle spells, but 4th-8th are all god-specific. I'd gladly redesign the Sarpagal deities, which is pretty much my best, tightest, and most interesting pantheon. Alternatively, just have a bunch of common spells, plus something like 1-3 special spells per god. (This is what 2E and 3E D&D do, basically.)

Mark

Yeah, optional skills is good. Although I want to keep advanced counterattack standard. -It's just so badass. I'll start an optional skill section.

I was thinking along the same lines, high-brow divinity for priests, infernal meddling for ritualists. (I was thinking the sacrifice ability should be for ritualists alone.)

I'll take another look at healing. I guess I don't mind healing in general as much as I do combat healing. Guys bouncing in and out of consciousness is weird. One option would be to offer weak combat healing, and other potent but slower healing. -I like that.

I still would dig some kind of fundamental difference for priest magic. One thing I was thinking, was a save modifier to all spells based on the circle of the priest casting it. The other magics have saves that are spell specific. I think it might be cool to have faith magic saves be priest specific. That way, an 8th circle priest casts a 1st circle spell with something like -8 to the save. -It would kind of set priests apart, and represent the priests increased favor with his deity as he grows in power. It makes sense to me.

Thoughts?

BTW, I modified your 'blessed weapon' ability to this: Prayer: 6 skill points. Faith magic potential is a prerequisite for the prayer ability. The prayer ability enables the priest to add a +1 or -1 modifier to any dice roll once per day. The decision to use the prayer ability must be made prior to the roll being made.

Rob

Yeah, Savant is neat and probably necessary.

For Faith Magic- I suggest keeping healing at a minimum. I like less healing in a system... don't let the cleric just regenerate the party to full every day. Taking time to heal slows down the game and keeps it more real... 1st level cure for 1d4 is fine.

Maybe focus on summoning divine entities, necromancy and undead, and what I was calling 'Martial magic'- spells like Enthrall and Bless, that rally the troops. And divination, which could be spiced up from what it was in D&D. Decide between Faith and Ritual for the curses, damnation, devil worship... maybe make a gritty version of infernalism for Ritual, and a more sleek high-brow version for Faith. Maybe go heavy into undead- things like Create Mummy and Become Dracula and Summon Avatar.

...

I'm wondering if, just like we have optional races in the GM's section, there should be optional abilities. The Magic abilities I just posted are good candidates, as are the more powerful weapon profs, like Improved Armor Use, Advanced Counterattack, and Berserker. I think it's a good idea. Actually, the GM's section could exactly parallel the 'Players Section'- in terms of bonus races, skills, weapons/armor, and spells.

Mark

That's what I'm talking about.

After a quick perusal, I plan on adding at least half of those, and maybe perverting a few more. -Awesome.

I really dig the idea of some magic abilities. Savant is great. I am also going to make that metamagic spell you suggested.

Hermetic and Hedge are more or less done, and I am now getting into Faith magic. -I'm having a difficult time giving it that extra 'something' though. Besides the obvious healing ability, I want to give it some unique flavor. Any thoughts? I don't want total fluid magic, but maybe it needs something along those lines. Something simple but additive. -I feel like faith magic should be fundamentally different somehow.

Good stuff. I think this system is becoming something uniquely interesting.

Lots of abilities

Nice- Misfortune could easily be a ritual spell or a horology spell also. Make it 3rd circle and affecting one person. Make a 5th circle metamagic spell that turns a single person-affecting spell into a group/AOE spell. Up to 8 targets isn't unreasonable.

You mentioned that I resorted to using INT instead of perception. Actually, for as long as I've been using perception-type skills, I rarely say out loud what the modifier should be. Sometimes I said in the past 'at half' or 'at quarter' or 'at -2', but usually I just keep it to myself, gauge how bad the rolls are, and decide quickly if and how much information to divulge. It's a free-form thing, doesn't reflect on the system. Some GMs might never or rarely call for perception checks; some ask for them a lot.

...

Lots of new abilities for you. Take any/all or pervert them how you see fit.

WEAPON SKILLS

Advanced Weapon Mastery: cost 2.5*weapon mastery. Gain Weapon Mastery in all weapon classes.

Combat Archery: space permitting, you may use missile weapons in melee with no penalty by finding just the right place to stand. 5 pts. (Should be -4 penalty to using missile weapons in melee ordinarily.)

Improved Armor Use: requires Armor Use II. Receive maximum damage reduction by worn armor. 20 pts.

Improved Disarm: requires Disarm and Unarmed Combat. Must be fighting unarmed or have the old Quickstrike skill. Successful attack does no damage, and you now wield enemy's weapon. 12 pts.

Improved Parry: once/day, block someone's special ability used on you (e.g., Great Strike, Disarm, etc). Requires Parry. 10 pts.

Improvised Shield: any weapon of class (whatever) or larger can be used as a shield, for dodge and ability purposes. 4 pts.

Iron Skin: when not wearing armor, you have damage reduction 1. 15 pts.

Precise Strike: melee or missile. Can be used two times/day. Ignore damage reduction by armor. 10 pts. (Alternatively, have different levels, and for each level, ignore 1 pt of dmg reduction by armor.)

Quick Shot: first round of combat, get an extra missile weapon attack with readied missile weapon. 6 pts. Can only be taken once.



MAGIC SKILLS

Arcana: requires Hedge/Ritual potential. Pick one Hermetic (if Hedge) or Faith (if Ritual) spell of a circle you can cast, and add it to your spell list. 12 pts.

Blessed Weapon: requires Faith/Ritual magic potential and Weapon Mastery I. Once/day, imbue your wielded weapon (must have weapon mastery in this weapon) with +1 bonus. Does not count as a spell being cast (but can/cannot be disrupted if concentration save failed?). 10 pts.

Cantrip: requires Hedge/Hermetic potential. Pick a 1st circle spell. Once/day, cast that spell innately, without expending a spell slot. 10 pts.

Conversational Casting: requires Faith/Hedge magic potential. Pick one spell you can cast. On a successful CHA check (or some CHA prof?), you may cast this spell on the sly during conversation with its target. 8 pts.

Extra Spells: requires Magic Potential. Gain 1 new spell slot of given circle. Costs 4*circle. Can only be taken 2/circle.

Magus: requires Faith/Hermetic Potential. Once/day, cast a spell at a -4 penalty to save.

Sacrifice: requires Hermetic/Ritual Magic Potential. Once/day, kill a living creature to get back one spell of any circle. 10 pts

Still Spell: 2 pts/Circle. Do not need somatic components for casting spells.



SPECIAL SKILLS

Agnostic: magic tends to fail on you. If you fail a save vs. spell, roll that save again. If a spell is cast on you that does not allow a save- even beneficial (e.g., healing)- you get a willpower save at -(circle) against it or there is no effect. Taking any Magic Potential ability permanently nullifies this ability. 25 pts.

Berserker: once/day, trade 1 AGIL pt for 1 STR and 1 END pt, up to level/2 pts total. Lasts 2* level in rounds. Health points lost are still lost when END returns to normal. 12 pts.

Jack-Of-All-Trades: you succeed on any non-proficient skill check on a natural 1 or a 2, instead of just 1. 12 pts.

Linguist: you speak an extra 5 languages besides those from INT. 3.5*language cost. Can only be taken once.

Savant: pick one proficiency... that proficiency is now 'General' rather than linked to a stat score (so you can go up to 20 without needing a 20 in that stat). 6 pts. Can only be taken once? Maybe three times?

Misfortune

I dig this new Hedge spell. Misfortune 5th (up to 3 creatures w/ a save): While under the effects of the misfortune spell, all dice rolls made on behalf of the affected creature must be rolled twice, and the less desirable result be used. For example, if character affected by the misfortune spell makes a melee attack, two δ20 rolls are made, and the lower result applied. This is similarly done for all proficiency checks, damage rolls, etc.

So harsh.

Mark

Ok, "Quickdraw" it is.

Buying up your initiative modifier is fine, I'll add that. -Improve Initiative.

Stamina is good. -Maybe a different name. Resilience? That sounds more on point. Maybe we should just call it "Bruce Willis".

I like the idea of giving up attacks for a better initiative, but I really want players to decide what to do at their initiative and not before. -The lack of declared-casting is for this reason. Maybe instead, a character could take an initiative penalty to increase one on-hand hit roll. Therefore, this can be decided at his initiative, and if he changes his action when the new initiative arrives, that's fine too. It needs to be very simple however, to minimize initiative meddling. How about this?:

Pause and Study (16 skill pts.): Further delay your initiative by -6 for a +2 'to-hit' one opponent for this round of attacks.

(I think the DM shouldn't announce NPC initiatives until they act to keep players guessing.)

Stunning blow is great. It could be played just as Greatstrike.

Yeah, archery abilities could be good.

Harkumen are on the brink. No rush.

Rob

Well, my vote was just to scrap Harkumen entirely, as they don't fit with anything. Scrap 'em.

Yeah, Hold Person was bullshit, but it's nice for the DM to have some quasi-storylining capacity. PCs gotta get captured sometimes, and they all gotta get captured together, or the adventure falls completely apart. Trust me on that one.

The tweaks you mentioned sound fine. 20 Prof points for starting is the way to go.

Weapon profs:
Quickstrike is ill-named; rename the existing skill to something more like 'Fast Draw', and what about: give up one or more on-hand attacks; the remaining on-hand attacks go at your initiative +4/attack given up. Must be declared at the beginning of the round.

You could allow people to buy 1-3 levels of +1 initiative, or add it to Weapon Mastery (my skill system had this).

Stamina: you die at -END not -1/2 END. Makes Last Stand that much more useful and keeps people alive.

Stunning Blow: a successful hit delays opponent's initiative by the amount of damage done/2.

Some archer profs are needed. Will post more later.

Yeah but, hold person?!

Yeah, I should have played a mage actually. Still, it was nice to do a bit of play testing.

I now realize I am going to need to spend a lot of time on organization of the actual rules themselves.

I did make a few small tweaks in response to the play test. 15 End gives +1 instead of 16, 20 beginning prof points, chain mail is now -4 dodge instead of -5, etc.

I would like to add two more mundane combat abilities if possible. Just to increase the variation of tactics. -If you have any ideas, let me know.

As for Harkumen, yeah they are freaky. But, I don't envision an expansion set. -We'll see.

I changed the magic item creation. I'm really happy with it. I'll upload 4.1 in the next day or so.

Yeah, it felt like D&D. No offense there. I was happy with how smooth it was, considering it was a first run and we had limited time.

One thing, I noticed you still fell back on IQ checks for perceptiveness or awareness. However, that might mean a guy with a 10 IQ and no perception skill could trump a guy with a 5 IQ and a 9 in perception. The way I've created it, I intend the GM to ask things like "Does anyone make a perception at -3?" -Meaning a perception check with a -3 modifier. -In this way, characters without perception (base 1), could still make it if they roll 1-4. The guy with a 9 perception needs a 1-12. If the check is really difficult, say perception at +2, only the guy with a 9 has any chance to notice.

I need to write a clear treatment of this. Maybe scripting an example adventure is a good idea too.

I think I also need to clarify that 'to-hit' rolls are the only d20 rolls where high is good. All other rolls, proficiencies, willpower, fortitude, etc, low is better. I almost considered changing 'to-hit' rolls too for total consistency, but it feels odd. -I do like the attribute caps on skills, and the way End, Str and Int translate to Fortitude and Willpower, and Agility to Dodge.

It is a bit odd where positive modifiers are good for hit and damage, but in all other instances negative modifiers are better. I been thinking about the language here somewhat.

Anyway, the adventure was a blast. Pretty good for a receipt-based module. Thanks for running it.

Module A1: The Lair of the Ice Witch

Okay, full combat playtest went very well. Major outstanding issues that did not get tested:

Faith magic
Ritual magic
Shit, magic in general
CHA skills
High level balance
Item creation
Harkumen (again, I vote to nix them- too weird and unlike anything else... let it be an 'expansion guide' race or something)

Otherwise, it was basically D&D. That's not meant to be a disparaging comment at all- what it means is that the system ran smooth and didn't get in the way of anything.

...

By the way, that whole adventure was the first third of the planned 'Sarpagal VI' campaign, plus a couple elements stolen from Jon Peterson's game.

Kewl.

All good points. Thanks.

In general, I am going to make those changes.

I had literacy IQ based at first, but you snuffed it, Rob. Nice to see we all now agree with me (ha). I think I'll go with an intellect-based initial number, and then make literacy and additional languages 4 and 3 ability points, respectively.

15 starting prof points sounds good to me. Having starting languages/literacy frees up more skill points for the smart guys too.

We'll see about art. Thanks though.

Yeah, I am tweaking the magic item creation as we discussed: Enchantment-point system based on time, resources, etc. I am also making a new spell for both Hermetic and Hedge called "inscribe" that will allow for scroll creation. -It will be 4th circle for Hedge, and 5th for Hermetic.

As for equipment outside of the D&D paradigm, that sounds like a good GM section option. I like this stuff, like the optional races. Shotguns aren't great for every campaign, but adding optional rules for stuff like that is additive. Basically, I want to make a standard version of what I know works, but that doesn't exclude those other possibilities like optional races, equipment, or even (maybe) psionics. It makes for fun reading too.

As for non-magical equipment creation, it will be in the GM's section. Basically, there will be a full GM treatment for every ability and proficiency to help the GM better interpret those things in gameplay. Armor-making, blacksmithing, and weapon-making will be described in detail there. -This thing is going to be huge.

Not sure about the auto contacts... However, I am going to make a basic starting cash rule linked to Cha as you suggested. -With the noted exception that the GM might choose otherwise. -Doh.

Finally, I'll take another look at those touch spells. You are suggesting multiple touches for harmful spells, right? -It might be a good option for some, especially for some of the weaker ones.

3.9 comments

So 3.9 is great. Some comments...

From playtesting:
-monsters need special abilities, init bonuses... bears and minotaurs should have last stand.

-number the pages.

...

Other ideas:
-more starting prof points. Not 10, how about 20? It's clear that there are only 1 and 1/2 good combat profs. Everything else is flavortext. Definitely more than 10, 15 at a bare minimum.

-buying languages and literacy with ability points is lame. How about everyone starts with 1 free language, and then everything else is IQ-based (giving IQ some purpose for mundanes). You get the '1st circle bonus spells' in extra languages, and can read and write all of them. If IQ 6 or less, you're illiterate. Make buying extra langs and literacy through prof points for 1 or 2 each. It's not realistic, sure, but languages are necessary and they should be easy to come by in a fantasy world. Or, we could go the other route, and leave buying languages/literacy with ability points to reflect the difficulty, but still give starting langs/lit based on IQ. I like this the best.

-if you are serious about publishing this, add art. The art was the most memorable part of the 1E books. Your drawings are great- shit like the eagle/castle, Ed's fighter, all that stuff would be a great addition.

-obviously ritual magic needs a lot of work, but hedge magic is fucking excellent, and should serve as a good model for RM.

-magic item creation needs a lot of work too... might as well throw in non-magic item creation also. Plus equipment costs and starting money/equipment.

-re: equipment. Why limit to just basic 1E D&D fantasy? Guns/steampunk stuff could mesh well with hedge magic, and I find adding tech only has made my games more interesting and versatile.

-I'm unsure of contacts as a prof now. What about treating it like languages above? You automatically start with some based on 1st circle bonus spells from CHA. Maybe you still can buy some.

-touch spells should stick around for a while. 10 minutes or until the next time you cast spell, not once per circle, which is brutal. You've gotta waste a round to cast the spell, then waste a round trying to attack although you're not melee-combat-primary? Might as well lightning bolt.