Version 845.62

Yeah, maybe it's alpha, but this way y'all know where the version you have stands. Luckily, I've heard the rationals are infinite.

As for the base 5'er, I figure the 'choosers' shouldn't have anything the 'rollers' can't, -even if those things are shitty stats. I wanna hold your hand...

The Metamagic is too much fun. There are already 13 of them. I'll post 3.4 tonight.

Plus and minus

The metamagic I like. Of course, that breaks the whole 4-and-20, 2-10, 2-6 symmetry thing I had going. The reason for symmetry is that it encourages balance in the design. Otherwise you end up with a grab bag of spells like 1&2E. It's more clear what certain Schools can and cannot do: there were similar amounts of overlap and unique domains for each school.

What about metamagic as a whole new School of magic, for 10 pts, available to anyone who has some magic ability? 3E does metamagic in a novel but unworkable way: it's done as feats, allowing you to cast spells at a higher circle for changes in their effects. I like not having to cast a spell to change other spells; I like just being able to do it. But casting as a higher circle
(in most cases, 2-4 circles higher) seems too harsh.

Or, expand Spellcraft as a skill and allow for metamagical tweaks depending on penalty taken to the spellcraft roll?

Given how weak mages are right now, it seems harsh to have to use up a spell slot and a combat round to cast a spell to change another spell.

...

Casting time seems like encumberance, in that it's an element of realism that, if enforced, makes the game slower and less fun. Everything I've seen and tried so far makes spellcasters, mages especially, just across the board worse than mundanes. With the exception of horology, which might just be totally broken, I'm not sure yet. It's cool, really cool, but seems outrageously powerful. Time Lords never did quite work in D&D.

...

Re: rolling stats. Again, what one guy likes is sort of irrelevant here. There's already an option to roll, let him roll. I liked the system you had before, it required some thought as to where to spend the points. Mins of 5 feel like hand holding. One thing I liked was that if I stuck a stat with a 1 or 2, it gave me something to do with my 3-5 extra abilitiy points that I had to spend, that I couldn't buy any other abilities with.

Here's a compromise: start all stats at 2, with 50 points. That way, racial modifiers can drop things down to 1.

Statistically speaking, rolling dice gives you better stats anyway, so you dice throwers should just be happy.

Also, it's silly to cap abilities at 20. It's good to cap them there for starting characters, but a titan is much stronger than some fighter guy I made at 1st level. If we're serious about making a general system, it should pander to the epic as well as the mundane. Upcap stats.

Re: named spells. I like it in individual campaigns, but I think it's sort of retarded to enforce in a system. Fine for magic, fine to encourage Dice Masters to tack on a few names to a few spells, but... what if I wanna play a viking campaign? Or cavemen? Or steampunk? Who the fuck is Nael, and why is he famous for Glitter: The Spell? The whole Mordenkainen/Bigby/Otto thing smacked of gamer strokedom, that Gygax could get away with because he was showing off his brand new invention. Why do some spells have names and others not? There's been an evolution away from this, not towards it. Are we going to sit around and say 'what's a cool mage name guys?!' to tack as a prefix? How about Brian? Brian's Magic Missile. Brian's Power Word: Kill. Auntie Flow's Down Home Polymorph Other? Garrison Bones' Wall of Bones (tm)? Mr. Chong's Crazy Good Bonus Spell? Systemically, these are all equally valid; there's no a priori reason that every named spell has to have a cool guy name.

Any system can't help but create specific worlds- adding metamagic, artifice, and horology are good examples. But those are subtle and suggestive. With Nael's Glitter, well now you have to have a guy named Nael in your game.

Named spells also strongly enforce the how of mage magic: the cliche of masters teaching apprentices, spellbooks, writing stuff down, the academic Hermetic tradition. But there are other, more interesting ways of doing it. For example, in 3E, it makes sense that a wizard would study and learn Tenser's Floating Disk. But a sorcerer? Who just automatically learns, or remembers, or is gifted with spells sans research? Why is his version also 'Tenser's'?

It's 3:1 okay, but why do you guys like named spells anyway? Do you agree that named Priest and Ritual spells make less sense than named Hermetic spells? Named Hedge spells make the most sense to me, given my view of the possible kinds of magic systems that support Hedge magic. If you're naming spells, at least have some consistency and some in-system explanation.

(While I'm in bitch mode: it's sort of silly to keep numbering the versions of the system while it's still incomplete. We're more like on alpha version 1.3 than version 3.4, but that just comes from the computer program world. Do as you will.)

I'll email example PCs like on the weekend when I have more time.

Metamagic.

That's the new school for hermetics. Ed and I spoke last night and came up with a few metamagic spells, including counterspell. -Yeah, we were playing Magic. Some of the new ones are in 3.3 which I'll post tonight.

Ed also thinks it's lame not rolling for abilities. In his words, it's one of the most fun things about gaming, -rolling up a new character. Also, it prevents people from doing cheesy stuff like having a stat at 1 or 2 just so you can have an outrageously high one.

Anyway, I changed it so all stats start at 5, and you have 35 points to spend. 5 is the minimum for rolling anyway.

Just some other tweaks here and there, plus more new spells.

Still open to suggestions.

Oh yeah, Ed also likes names on spells. That's 3 to 1 Rob, Nael's Magical Trace it is.

Also, Ed pointed out Nael's Magical Trace as a kick ass spell. -You've got company, Paul.

1s and 2s.

1s and 2s? Really? I'd assume it would have to be in intellect, charisma or strength. A 1 dodge or 1 health point wouldn't work too great.

See, there's the beauty of rolling dice. There is none of that crap. It's kind of hard to combat that kind of stuff and still make player assignment of stats worthwhile. I guess, I could give every stat a base 5, and give 35 points to spend instead of 60. Maybe that's the cure. How about a base 4, and 40 points to spend? That sounds reasonable.

I like the prof score limited by the stat. Like you said, you can always raise the stat. Gives mundanes another thing to do with skill points at higher levels. Also, I think it makes sense. A guy with an agility of 4 shouldn't have a balance of 20.

If you can Rob, email some of those characters to the DIDFactory account. I'd like to see how you approach it.

New you

Making some guys. Yeah, it's fun, but it's fun making new characters with any new system. I'd love to play a cannibalistic Blood Mage. Hard to assess balance though. Tough to do much else besides spellcasting. Not sure about limiting skills to the max of the associated stat... I think I like it, but I dunno; maybe not so bad since you can raise stats. Finding that most of my guys have some low, low stats, like 1s or 2s.

Test.

Hey Rob and Paul. (Anyone else too.)

Try this, make a character through 6th level. Each of you. Any kind of character. Use v3.2 rules.

Post them if you can, or mail them to the didfactory@gmail.com account.

I just made Jimmy Swill again, and I really dug it. I want to see what you guys think.

I like horology.

Steal Youth -8th circle, horology.

When cast, the steal youth spell causes one creature to instantly age 4d6 years, and another to grow the same number of years younger. A successful fortitude check reduces the years stolen 2d6 years. Furthermore, if the recipient to grow younger resists, the years stolen are reduced by half once again. For example, if both creatures resist successfully, 1d6 years are transferred. If one creature resists, 2d6 years are transferred.

Undead and extraplanar creatures are unaffected by the steal youth spell.

Note: If the steal youth spell results in a creature passing its minimum natural life expectancy, the Game Master will determine if death due to aging occurs. For example, if a dwarven character were more than 150 years old after a steal youth spell, death may occur. Similarly, if steal youth reduces a character to less than 0 years of age, the character dies.

What kind of system.

Those articles are interesting. I scanned the first two and read the last.

I do agree that system matters. -I wouldn't have started this one if I didn't. I knew I liked something about each of the multiple incarnations of D&D, as well as our skill system. I thought a better, more elegant one could be constructed.

I think the guy makes a point. However, one needs to be wary of false classifications.

Employing his terms, I'd say this is more gamist system, with narrativist options. I think we've always played that way.

For me, elegance matters. Hence the Dodge score. However, so does common sense. Hence the armor absorbance. I want the system to be smooth, but not predictably so. I don't think a completely spherical system is interesting. Sometimes a quirk or two can add a lot.

That being said, I like how things are shaping up. I am not setting out to create an entirely unfamiliar system. I am trying to make one that is a little more intellectual than D&D, yet not by making it a simulationist type game.

I have already imagined a few characters I would like to make in this system.

Basically, I want to make a game that I'd play. I would be sad if all I could play was 3ed D&D. I want to make an underground better D&D-like system.

Did I mention I plan on getting Jeff Dee for cover art? I am serious. Check out his link on the DiDlinks page.

Dice Master

Ok, I get the Conjure/Summon thing.

The reason why I called the Faith/Ritual stuff domain, is because it comes from some extraplanar power. Hedge/Hermetic was more about formulae, so schools sounded good. Priests don't really seem to be in a school of magic to me. Could we say there are four magic disciplines?

Either way, our stuff is pretty close. I like how you got rid of some overlap like enchantment and artifice. I think necromancy, life, and death might be redundant. You don't have priests giving curses. I need some examples for Martial. Without Artifice for Ritual, Green Man must be sacked. Also, Hedge and Ritual had six each. I am going to do a mix:

Priest Domains
Abjuration (protection, wards)
Anointment (Blessings)
Divination (Scry, information)
Exorcism (Banishment, curse removal)
Nature (Plants and animals, weather)
Necromancy (cure, hurt, raise dead, draining)
Possession (Charm, geas)
Radiance (Light, warmth)
Summoning (demons, avatars)
Wrath (curses, damnation)

Hermetic Schools
Abjuration (protection, wards)
Alteration (Disguise, light, fly, wish)
Annihilation (Dispel magic, disintegrate)
Artifice (Building golems and servants, enchantment)
Astromancy (Teleport, dimension door, planeshift)
Charm (Charms)
Divination (Scry, information)
Evocation (Fireballs, wall of fog)
Horology (Speed, timeportation)
Summoning (Get a xorn)

Hedge Schools
Alteration (Disguise, levitation)
Artifice (Building golems and servants)
Charm (Charms)
Divination (Scry, information)
Illusion (Illusions)
Jinxes (Fumbling, stink, etc…)

Ritual Domains
Anointment (Blessing)
Cannibalism (eat hearts, souls, you lose I gain)
Divination (Scry, information)
Sacrifice (Sacrifice for gain, blood pact, drink deep)
Summoning (Demon summoning)
Voodoo (disease, blind, curse or wierd stuff)

I took necro from ritual. Once it involved life and death, it didn't seem right. No cure or cause for the witch.

Rob

No no, Conjuration and Summoning are two separate things. They may have the same game effect, but the in-game explanation is totally different. Conjuration is akin to Evocation, in which magical energies are used to create a temporary creature. Summoning is teleportation, in which you find a creature out there in the world, and summon him to your spot.

I like the School/Domain distinction, but I don't fully agree with your School/Domain layout. How about:

THE FOUR AND TWENTY
Schools:
Faith
Hedge
Hermetic
Ritual

Domains:
Abjuration (protection, walls, and wards): FAITH, HERM
Alteration (polymorph, fly, wish): HEDGE, HERM
Annihilation (dispel magic, disintegrate, the void): HERM
Anointment (blessings): FAITH, RITUAL
Artifice (make golems and things, enchant mundane objects): HEDGE
Astromancy (teleport, dimension door, planeshift, spatial distortion): HERM
Cannibalism (eat hearts, souls, brains): RITUALDivination (revelations, scrying): FAITH, HEDGE, HERM, RITUAL
Evocation (blast magic and elemental forces): HERM
Exorcism (Banishment, curse removal): FAITH, RITUAL
Horology (haste/slow, timeportation, other time magic): HEDGE, HERM
Life (healing, curing, resurrection): FAITH
Jinxes (fumbling, stink, bad luck): HEDGE
Martial (war magic, law magic, crowd control): FAITH
Mind (fear, illusions, charm, dominate, geas, ESP): HEDGE, HERM
Nature (plants and animals, weather and elementals): FAITH
Necromancy (raise dead, draining): FAITH, HERM, RITUAL
Radiance (light, warmth): FAITH
Summoning (demons, elementals, etc): FAITH, HERM
Voodoo (disease, curses, blindness, damnation): RITUAL

In this scheme, the two Major Schools (FAITH and HERM) get 10 Domains, and the two Minor Schools (HEDGE and RITUAL) get 5 Domains, with some overlap and some unique stuff.

...

On a different note, here's some game design stuff that I found very helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_Theory

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/3/

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/system_does_matter.html

All articles are related. Good stuff I think. Most important is the social aspect brought up: the contract between the DM and the players.

The main point here, which I didn't appreciate until I started thinking about DiDFactory stuff, was that System Matters. I thought 3E D&D was a catchall and you could run whatever game you want. That's true, but only with enough 'house rules', and the point of designing a system is exactly this: to mechanize away the house rules.

I also think that System Rules and specific World Rules should be kept separate. We can work on a world in time.

Schools and Domains.

Hmm. This brings up an interesting point. I think I need to rework the School as Domains a little.

Is 'light' astromancy or 'alteration'? Is 'control weather' elemental or astromancy? Clone could be illusion, maybe sans a material component. Otherwise it should be artifice, which I like.

Ok, I am adding 'Artifice' to Hedge, Hermetic and Ritual magic. -That's their deal. I never liked priest's making golems anyway. Rob's Green Man ritual spell sounds like artifice.

These are the new schools/domains, who has them, and what they do:

Priest Domains
Anointment (Blessings)
Conjuration (Summon an avatar)
Damnation (Curses, blindness)
Death (Death magic, cause wounds)
Exorcism (Banishment, curse removal)
Life (Healing, curing, ressuraction)
Nature (Plants and animals, weather)
Necromancy (Raise dead, draining)
Possession (Charm, geas)
Radiance (Light, warmth)
Revelation (Augury, knowledge, locate object)
Sanctuary (Protection)

Hermetic Schools
Alteration (Disguise, light, fly, wish)
Annihilation (Dispel magic, disintegrate)
Artifice (Building golems and servants)
Astromancy (Teleport, dimension door, planeshift)
Charm (Charms)
Divination (Scry, information)
Elemental (Resist fire, waterbreathing, control weather)
Enchantment (Enchantments)
Evocation (Fireballs, wall of fog)
Horology (Speed, timeportation)
Summoning (Get a xorn)
Wards (Protection, glyphs)

Hedge Schools
Alteration (Disguise, levitation)
Artifice (Building golems and servants)
Charm (Charms)
Divination (Fortune telling, scry)
Illusion (Illusions)
Jinxes (Fumbling, stink, etc…)

Ritual Domains
Anointment (Blessing)
Artifice (Building golems and servants)
Conjuration (Demon summoning)
Damnation (Curses)
Necromancy (Raise dead, draining)
Voodoo (Eat a heart, feel good)

Basically, astromancy is messing with space. Horology messes with time. Light and darkvision are alterations.

Astromancy

Clone I love. Let's distinguish between Illusions and Constructs though. Maybe a School of Artifice for Hedge Magic?

Low level Astromancy. Let's see. First off, we're distinguishing time from space, yes? Horology is time magic, astromancy light and space magic. Weather magic too? It's on my mind.

1st Circle:
Darkness
Light

2nd Circle:
Darkvision
Portent (divination to read the stars)
Raincloud

3rd Circle:
Continual Darkness
Continual Light

4th Circle:
Dimension Door (Projection, but can go through walls)
Sending ('project' someone else, willing or unwilling on failed save)
Thunderclap

5th Circle:
Control Weather
Sunbeam

6th Circle:
Summon Storm
Teleport

7th Circle:
Gate

8th Circle:
Meteor Swarm
Plane Shift
Typhoon

I think this Hedge Magic spell rocks.

Clone-5th circle, Illusion
The clone spell creates an exact clone of the caster. Upon casting, the caster must enter a state of deep meditation. During this state, the caster may act through the clone, performing any actions that he or she is normally capable of, even casting spells, using abilities etc. The only difference between the caster and the clone is that the clone has one third as many maximum health points as the caster (round up). For example, a theurgist with 32 health points could create an 11 health point clone. Furthermore, if the clone is reduced to 0 health points, it immediately crumbles to dust. Likewise, the clone dissolves at the end of the spell’s duration, or at any time the caster’s meditation is broken (willpower check to resist).

The clone spell does not replicate the caster’s equipment. Thus, any equipment the clone carries must be supplied by the caster. This equipment does not dissolve upon the clone’s death.

The material requirement of a clone spell is an amount of clay, equal in weight to the caster to be cloned.

Note: The nature of the clone is not revealed by sense magic, nor may it be dispelled.

Happy median.

Ok, this is how it stands: Seven standard races: Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-elf, Half-orc, Human, and Orc. Half-elves and half-orcs have no ability modifiers. No race has more than one +1 or more than one -1.

There are seven optional races: Cambions, Goblins, Harkumen, Ogres, Ratkin, Reptilians, and Sidhe.

That's a nice balance, isn't it?

Let's move on...

I like the idea of optional skills. It is cool to give GM's an idea of what might be done. However, making a core set with what we know works sets a good example or tone. Let's do that later, however.

I am getting back to spells. Send em if you've got em. I realize that the crew is going to be together for turkey. New spells go great with turkey. Get Dave and Chris to kick a couple out.

Also, do download the new versions from time to time. It might answer a question before you ask it.

I made a 3rd circle Astromancy Spell called projection:
Projection
The projection spell instantly sends the wizard to any place that lies within sight of the wizard, and within range of the spell. For example, a wizard may employ projection to ‘project’ himself from the deck of a ship to a shoreline 500’ away. However, the wizard could not use projection to enter an unseen room even 10’ away.

Teleport will be 6th, but I am trying to think of other lower circle astromancy spells.

Paul

I think the issue of titles needs to be put ot bed, but hey I can work on other things too.

I agree that the Harkumen are world building. That's why I tried to leave it poorly described, so as to encourage whomever it is that would buy the product would be motivated to do some. I like the idea of having a few "standard" races, a few "optional races" still just races with minmax traits, and "expanded races". Perhaps having races like Harkumen with more complicated system alterations. Just have 3 that show how the system could be changed so as to introduce the idea to readers that things aren't written in stone and that it's good to create story useful races for their campaign.

I'm not sure cambion is a good core race. Maybe Gnoll or Goblin.

I think Accupuncture and other skills could be included as samples of "campaign skills". Other things like a knowledge based technology, or astronomy skill could be included.

Having optional rules, spells, abilities, proficiencies layed out which illustrate in each section how it could responsibly be expanded, or changed to fit a few possible campaigns would be nice. How beutiful is the runon.

well.

I like the idea of Elves having a +1 Cha -1 end
Dwarves getting the +1 Int and -1 Agil
Orc +1 Str, -1 Agi

I like half races.....they don't need to have mods though. I think that having a half elf who can choose to build their character with either template is kinda good.

I have to go tired of typing

Music of the races?

Why so hard on symmetry? We should call it Dungeons & Harmony.

JK. Well, I already went through the trouble of adding that optional list. I am going to post v3.1 on the DiDfactory gmail right now. Have a look.

I don't personally want ratkin in and half-orcs out just for reasons of symmetry. Gnomes screwed things up too I guess, because they have two +1's and two -1's. Still, I like ogres and gnomes.

Take a look at my interpretation of the optional races. I think they are pretty mellow. Even the harkumen.

Anyway, I finally got caught up with the spells. Let's get back to spells, eh?

Racism

I dunno about Harkumen as a PC race. First, like 'Acupuncture' and named spells, it's world building, which we should wait on. Also, the whole 'immortal then loses skills' thing is unbalanced. The other races are all 'topologially' similar, meaning that their system implementation is all the same: stat minmaxing.

I say wait. I like having a set of optional races, but harkumen shouldn't be there yet. Make ogres optional too, as they get two +1s, which is qualitatively better than all the other races.

One idea is to have six 'core' races, with humans and one race each for each of the five stats:
Cambion, +1 CHA, -1 STR
Dwarf, +1 END, -1 AGIL
Elf, +1 IQ -1 END
Orc +1 STR, -1 IQ
Ratkin, +1 AGIL, -1 CHA

See how nice that is? None of this halfbreed shit.

Or, drop cambion for sidhe or some other CHA race, and make five or six GM optional races with +1s/-1s to two stats (e.g., ogres).

I'll be the first to admit it.

Pardon my loincloth
Trying to impress someone
True, I love drama

Who knows what the Wizard Wrangler would like?

I've got nothing against these exotic races. However, I think they might not fit in every Wizard Wrangler's campaign. Still, I want them to be included.

This is what I am going to to. I'm going to start the GM's section, and include these races as optional races, or examples for an expanded race selection. So far, this list will include: Harkumen, Ratkin, Reptilians, Goblins, Sidhe and Cambions.

In the future, I want to make an optional proficiency list that contains psionic proficiencies.

This race thing is a good place to break open the Monster Maker section.

God, Dice Commander is so rich.

Maybe FANTASY MEDIATOR?

I think they could be interpreted a couple of different ways that are good, but for me I just have them all look like regular ole humans. They aren't a construct technically, they are humans with an ancestor who had no soul for lack of a better term. Now they don't have a soul, hence the can't cast thing. It could be really complicated. I like it that they aren't explained. Some DM might take it upon themselves to do some work and make a race like this fit. I like making opportunities for the FANTASY MEDIATOR, without designing the world for them.

It could get really long if we actually tried to come up with a coherant race origin and explaination.

Rats

I like ratkin.

Harkumen? You know what, I like the idea of being able to play constructs. Harkumen sound like constructs to me, except for the mating thing. WTF are Harkumen anyway, what do they look like?

I agree with our DICE COMMANDER

I'm a fan of the Goblinoids being a PC race. I think that they might work well if the theme for cambions somehow worked with that. In my game Goblins are sometimes Independant descendents of Demons who killed their god in a war of the gods, and sometimes they are corrupted elves, they have changing background. Point is I like them in the game. It's nice to have a straight up LE sort of empire/race. I play them either arabic or japanese in simple terms.

Ratkin are cool, no matter how much you hate Nym.

I have to start of by saying, we simply must change the name Dungeon Master or whatever you are using to something catchy, more modern. I think you should go with DICE COMMANDER. It looks really cool. It's always hard to be the poor schlub running the game and I think giving that person a cool title would make it a lot more appealing.

On a less serious note, here are some races I like.

Harkumen.

+1 Str, +1 End, -1 to Int, -1 to Cha

Harkumen cannot cast spells, ever. They also may not activate magic items, they may however use persistant items.

Harkumen do not die when they reach -10 hp (double their Endurance?) they begin losing Knowledge Skills at this point, at a rate of 1 for 1. If they run out of knowledge based skills they will lose Int points until those too are exhausted. They are permanently destroyed if unable to lose skills or Int and they take damage. If the Harkumen is healed they will awaken and be functional again but they are changed. Lost skill points and Int points do not return. They cannot be brought back by any means if they lose all their knowledge skills and Int. There is essentially nothing to bring back.

Harkumen are like humans in appearance, and may not truly be a race unto themselves. Their origins are rumor and myth. Harkumen cannot breed with each other, they may only produce offspring with a mate who is not Harkumen. The will always produce a Harkumen child.

I especially like a race like this because it has lots of space for a DM to build a story.

Ratkin!!

I always have them be a minor race now in my games. They are always a made race. In the sense that someone always created them in the known part of world history. A powerful spellcaster wanting a slave race, etc.

I usually have them living in old ruined cities or deep under very large cities. Ruined cities work well with the theme about the crazy old mage types who make the Ratkin. Either way they are free now.

-1 Cha, +1 Agi

I think these guys could argue for low light vision and maybe some others mods. Perhaps with some more penalty stats.

R

Well, I hate faerie folk as much as the next guy, but I was thinking about what I said about making a general system. Other people out there I'm sure might want to play a tall dashing Celtic faerie. So we'll let 'em.

If you don't like halfling, what about Goblin (+1 AGIL, -1 END)? I was looking through Arcana Evolved (3E+ UA), and they've got giants, dragonmen, hippie chicks all as races. I dunno about any of those guys.

Yeah, Natural Armor is too good. Nix it.

Thighmaster

Actually, I realized that armsmaster isn't necessary. All characters begin with +0, +0 with all weapons. It's like Dave said, why make them start all at -2, -2, when it's all relative.

Besides, the new weapon classes are broad enough that weapon mastery I in everything isn't so necessary either.

-Do tell about these fairy folk.

Gelfling?!

Ok, I made the swimming thing +3 each round. they won't last too long. Remember, this is only someone with the proficiency, other people have no chance. -They sink.

Back stab is fine.

Natural armor: I think I am leaving this one out. Honestly, it kind of grosses me out. Also, it's too wizard friendly. Ew.

Armsmaster: Paul's Conan will love it. Done.

Reptilians, maybe? -I always imagine the frill-running thing.

Cambion, I like.

Halfling, Rob?! Is that you? I'll add Gnome, but Halfling is too D&D (It's also a racial slur, man.), and Hobbit is Copyrighted.

Sidhe, Rob?! Take your temperature! More fairy than elves? Huh. -Give me more.

Yeah, whirlwind is any weapon. Download the newest version, eh?

More

In agreement with the last round of things. Whirlwind should be w/ any melee weapon.

But we need more! More, damn it, more!

...

More races:
Reptilians (+1 IQ, -1 STR), Cambion (quasi-demon, +1 CHA, -1 END), Halfling (+1 AGIL, -1 STR), Sidhe (fairy dudes, +1 AGIL, +1 CHA, -1 STR, -1 END).

...

More abilities:
Armsmaster 20 pts, proficiency with all weapons.

Backstab, 6 pts * level, max 5 lvls, each does +1d6 on successful surprise attack with each attack that round.

Natural Armor- 10 pts*level max 3 levels, gain damage reduction 1 pt, 1d2 pts, or 1d4 pts.

...

Um, swimming? You can swim easily in platemail? Just +2 to the check?

Well that talk over Turkey should be interesting.

To answer your question about the spell Rob, I only used it to follow the party thief. The spell was a bit different in the game that I made it for. I do think that the trace spell has a nice use for DM's. I think that it's the kind of spell that the Mage person working for the city guard, or well you should really get the idea, would find useful. Sure it's not a blast spell, but I think we should encourage people to think outside the +5 to hit and +5 to damage box. I think it's also a good 1st circle spell to include as far as a spell that is a precursor to higher level divinations like locate object.

be the words, don't read em.

uh, yeah. ok. Well good for Conan, I guess I showed whats what.

3.0

v3.0 is on the DiDfactory gmail account.

Armor is modified for 'to hit'. New abilities, new spells. Check it out.

Not all of Rob's new spells have been added yet.

Conan gets props.

"on-hand", Paul, not "one-hand". That just means no off-hand weapons. Conan can whirlwind like a fool.

Paul

come on....
Whirlwind, Conan....two handed sword, Monk Falu with his Staff. Sir Reginald of the Order of the Phoenix with his pike defending the Lady.....you get the idea.

Why restrict it to one handed weapons.

It's true that I thought it was being restriced to open hand which is really silly, but so it restricting it to one handed weapons.

Balance.

I think the agility attribute should give a 'to hit' bonus. It makes sense, and it correlates with strength and damage, and makes sense with the new armor 'to hit' penalty.

I realized there where a lot of ways to work your dodge up, but not so many to work the 'to hit' up.

Seen the light.

I've changed my mind about weapon classes. We need them.

Back to it.

I like the feint prof., I am adding it. But, just until the end of the round, It is still useful, and it's simple.

I was thinking about the weapon-use/class thing too. However, I think Dave made a good point. -It's all relative. Whether you give a negative modifier or no modifier to all unskilled folk, it just sets the baseline. I don't know how much the weapon class thing adds, besides complexity.

Combat casting is cool. I think Paul has a point though, maybe just a big bonus, like -6 to the first willpower check.

Shield bash is cool, but I am making it 1d4. -It is a big flat plate. I think carrying the AC thing to the next initiative is too complicated for what little it adds. -Until the next round.

Shield Use/Mastery: Cool, but a little more expensive. (It doesn't come with agiltiy penalties like better armor.)

Last stand: Cool.

Whirlwind: Cool. -It's any on-hand weapon, Paul.

Dirty Fighting: Maybe. However, now Unarmed may use Weapon Mastery. Also, couldn't you dirty fight with a weapon too? Since I am considering to apply armor-induced 'to hit' penalties to all weapons, maybe UA doesn't need it. (see bottom)

Critical hit: cool.

Acupunture: This in interesting, but odd. So these selected spells are unalterable yet towards your spells for the day? This could be cool, but could you give me a clearer explanation, Rob?

Silent casting: This is cool. I need to add components onto the spells. I think most, except ritual will just be verbal and somatic. Priests mostly verbal. As Paul suggested, costs might need to be altered.

Advanced counterattack: This is cool. It could really kick ass. 20 skill points for sure.

You guys and you're demihuman hating... Alright, humans get 5 more initial ability points. Whaeh.

Finally, Paul makes an interesting point. Maybe armor should give a minor neg. 'to hit' modifier, across the board. Armor use could fix this fairly easily, and it makes sense. I think things are balanced a little too much to dodge over 'to hit' anyway. I think I am going to add this to the armor table.

BTW, thanks guys. Good stuff.

Uh...

All men are equal
You don't believe me at all
I just crapped my pants

Busy weekend. I'll be back to work on it tomorrow.

paul thinks outloud.

I think Rob is right humans should get something.

In my game non-humans don't get shit. If they want to try and play an orc, which isn't probably going to happen in my game, they can pay for low light vision as if it was an ability.

I don't think Whirlwind should be restricted to only open-hand. I think it would work real well with a polearm, etc.

I think that shield bash should reduce armor until the players next Init, not just till the end of the round.

I agree with rob that classes of weapons should be learned, I'm just not sure what class to include fistycufff.

I think combat casting should not automatically block one attack. That is brutal on the mundanes, just give em the bonus.

silent casting seems like it is too expensive to learn silent 4th level spells.
If I buy 3rd level spells for 9 and 4th for 12 that seems like a lot. and 3 for quite 1st level spells seems low.

Accupuncture seems like world creation, why not just call it something like spell mastery, and leave the particulars out. "I know magic missile so well, I don't need my book to learn it." If it's permanently in the body why can't the person cast it all the time? It could function like a scroll, and then have to be redone. I again like the basic idea, it just seems a little.....something. I think the person could learn accupuncture and maybe learn how to store spells in their body...sort of like contingencies...and they would have to say what spell they are learning to store.....hmm..

Paul

I don't think armor should negatively effect attacking open handed, or rather my thought is more copmlex than that. Fighting against a guy with a sword, openhanded, is something I think it'd be far more successful at with platemail on. Maybe not. If it has a negative effect on fighting open handed then why not with daggers, or swords, why not with the bow? Just seems very arbitrary to me.... I do like the idea of heavier armors having a negative influence on the ability of a character to hit though....I think thats a good idea. Maybe just scale it back and start it with something like the armors above chainmail, and breastplate. The armors where things start to get joints and very complicated. People are buying abilities to wear the stuff so I wouldn't punish them too much. And most guys running around in chain probably don't have a strength penalty. Even if you have a strength bonus though I think Plate would slow anyone down.

Just a thought while I relax after work.

Equivocation

Blogger haiku wants you to know that despite the shit talking, maybe our system has some promise:

Yet all is not lost
The new day has awoken
You seem pretty smart

Rules Critique

It's all about the cannibals. Yeah, I'm having fun with the Ritual spells.

My annotated pdf didn't get so far. Here's some stuff:

Page 1: there are now five abilities, not four. Please correct numerous locations on page 1 and maybe elsewhere.

When I get around to it, I'll ask my computer program if the stat bonuses are all balanced.

Nonhumans are still better than humans. Low-light vision, and stat minmaxing trumps having no special skills. I still think humans should get one bonus ability point.

Other potential abilities:
Advanced Counterattack. 20 points. Requires Counterattack. Take one on-hand attack on an opponent immediately after (the next combat segment) they attack you. This can only be done once per round.

Silent Casting. 3 points*circle. Cast spells of that circle without verbal components.

Acupuncture. 1 point*spell circle of encoded spell. Permenently encode one spell within your body- you no longer require spellbooks to memorize this spell. Limit of END spell circles encoded in this manner.

Critical Hit. 12 points. Crit on natural 19 or 20 with a specific weapon. Requires Weapon Mastery I.

Dirty Fighting. 7 points. +1 to hit and damage with Unarmed Combat (requires UC I).

Whirlwind. 13 points. For your round, you make one on-hand attack at -2 vs. every melee opponent in range. Requires Weap Mast I.

Last Stand. 6 points. Remain conscious between 0 hp and negative 1/2 END.

Shield Use. 5 points. Another +1 to AC when using a shield.

Shield Mastery. 6 points. Another another +1 to AC when you got a shield yo. Reqs. Shield Use.

Shield Bash. 6 pts. Hit a dude with your off-hand shield for 1d6. No bonuses to AC that round.

Combat Casting. 10 points. The first combat damage sustained each round does not require a concentration check to keep casting.

...

For weapon mastery, I'd suggest opening up weapon classes. First off, anyone can use any weapon? Maybe you should have Weapon Skill as an ability. For 4 points, you can use: Swords, Axes/Maces, Polearms, Bows, Crossbows, or (optionally) Exotic Weapon (one kind of weapon per ability bought, e.g., Guns, Firebombs, Nets, Bolas, &c). Then Weapon Mastery would be in a specific class. I think it's pretty shitty in D&D that if you can use a broadsword, you can't use a longsword.

...

Possible proficiencies:

Transcribe 1 for 1 (IQ or AGIL). Used for forgery or for transcribing magic scrolls.

Feint 1 for 1 (AGIL or IQ). Can be used once/round in combat against a specific opponent who goes after your current action, but before your next initiative. On a successful check, gain a +2 to dodge vs. all their attacks.

Empath 1 for 2 (CHA or IQ). Can communicate simple requests, emotions, and ideas with body language despite not speaking a specific language. Can also understand the same in humanoids, animals, and some monsters.

...

I like Ignore. One of those spells that always shoulda been around.

...

The random haiku generator has a message for us:

Your skills aren't so good
Just like ventriloquism
Please go away now

The gates have opened.

Now that's what I am talking about. These are all (well, maybe excepting Hubert's Machine) awesome.

Flavor. Goddamned flavor. I really dig the ritual stuff. -It's gonna get those christians hating on us all over again.

I will work them into the format. We can re-edit later. Don't forget: per circle! not per level.

If we can have a bunch of spells like this, along with what I think are some great mechanics (ahem.), this whole thing is going to be worth while.

How about 'command' or 'adjure' instead of power word? -I like command personally. How about 'tongue-lashing'? Ha ha ha!

More spells from Rob

HEDGE MAGIC
Create Scrivener- 1st circle
Casting time 10 min. From sticks, twine, and a quill, the caster creates a magical scribe that can copy non-magical texts and scrolls. The Scrivener works rapidly, transcribing two pages per minute, and can work tirelessly for 1 hr/level, even if the caster is asleep.

Imbuement- 2nd circle
Imbues any small trinket with the ability to contain a 1st level spell, cast by the same caster immediately after Imbuement is cast. The trinket keeps this spell, and can be activated at will by the caster any time up to 1 hr/level afterwards.

Ioun Stone- 3rd circle
Enchants a gemstone worth at least 100 gp for 1 hr/level. It becomes a floating magical device that spins around the user’s head, providing a +1 on any one stat chosen at time of casting.

Witches Ointment- 4th circle
Caster enchants an inert riding device, such as a broomstick, carpet, or wooden horse, with the ability of flight. Depending on size limitations of the enchanted object, up to one extra person/3 levels may ride along. While flying, travelers are protected with Feather Fall and Invisibility spells. At the caster’s discretion, the anointed device may also be invisible.

Hubert’s Wondrous Machine- 5th circle
Enchants a staff or long tree branch after tapping it thrice on the ground and hefting it into the air. Sprouts many spindly mechanical branches covered in broad, colorful paper leaves, spinning in the air about six feet above the caster’s head. Each round at the caster’s initiative score, the Machine acts as a Wand of Wonder. Targeted effects can be directed as the caster wishes. If the caster spends his action attempting to control the device, he gains a cumulative +/- 1-10 points to adjust the die roll. Lasts 1 round/level.

…

RITUAL MAGIC
Blood Pact- 1st circle
The caster exchanges one point of END for one point in any other ability score. This change lasts all day.

Cannibalize Heart- 1st circle
Touch attack, does 1d8. Caster is healed that much. (1d8 might sound like a lot, but then again, you have to burn a 1st level spell, then melee attack someone. Not a great combo.)

Blood Doll- 2nd circle
The next successful attack on the caster leads to the creation of one ‘blood doll’ for every hp in damage (after armor reduction). Each blood doll is a 3’ tall horrible simulacrum of the caster, has 1 HD, is AC:10, and attacks once/round for 1d4. The blood dolls will mob the opponent who led to their creation- as many blood dolls as possible will attack each round. Other blood dolls will stand around waiting their turn.

Cannibalize Tongue- 3rd circle
Touch attack, steals one point of INT and CHA from the victim for 1d20 rounds. Caster gains one pt of INT and CHA for the same time.

Green Man- 3rd circle
Casting time: one full night at the middle of the month (new moon). Takes one pt of END that is not recovered until the Green Man is destroyed. The Green Man is a simulacrum created from earth and plants and must be buried in the ground. After one week, at any time, the Green Man can be called forth- basically a 6 HD earth elemental that can do tasks or fight.

Drink Deep- 4th circle
For any of the caster’s spells that require an hp or END cost, a live sacrifice of a humanoid creature will replace that cost.

Cannibalize Brain- 4th circle
Touch attack. If magic-using, steals random spell from the victim, which the caster can use any time in the next day. If mundane, steals random ability. The victim cannot use that spell or ability until the next day.

Swan Song- 5th circle
Lasts one hour per level. The first time the caster is reduced in combat to 0 or fewer hp, even if killed, the opponent that attacked must save or also be reduced to the same number of hp (this may or may not lead to the death of the opponent). A successful save still leads to 4d8 damage.

…

I sorta feel like I’m making Magic cards here for some reason. Topologically, a lot of these spells aren’t so different from Summon Xorn.

So feedback appreciated, the more critical the better. Do these work for you, or are they lame? We’re trying to make whole new types of magic, so let’s push it.

Rob's back! ...and he brought opinions!

JK, Rob. It really is a good thing.

The more we debate, the better the stuff that survives.

As for Circumvention, I think 'in principle' the idea of altering a spell while in effect is cool. As for screwing contingencies, I think it requires a 'detect contingency' in the first place. -There is a lot of out of game knowledge there. I like the flavor, but it needs to be clear and useful.

Trace is fine. Maybe I won't use it alot, but I could see some players digging it. Paul represents a gaming contingent. If its fair and useful, why not?

Please look at my 1st circle charm spell 'Ignore'. -I think that's where a 1st circle charm should be.

Yes! A spell!

I dig it. Seeker is sweet. I think he should be summoning, or divination though. -Maybe both? Also, remember -per circle, not per level. It's going in.

I realize not every spell that gets through at this stage will remain or go unaltered. After this set is done, I think we should go through, edit and cull. Some spells that look great now might look different when the list is full.

But, it's a start. I forgot about water-breathing.

Oh yeah, about the world. If it's all the same to you, I'd like to assume Nahrboring. Not explicitly, (i.e. Gygax's 'Aerth'), but every system needs flavor. -It's like system charisma. I think it gets kids imagination going. As for spell and monster flavor, I'd like everyone to ask themselves: "Could I see this in Nahrboring?" I think the notion of "This seems to have come from somewhere" can provide a certain cohesiveness.

Just saw your post. -Can you think of another name than "Power Words"? I'll try.

Power Words

‘Seeker’ is okay but boring. I’m bored with mage and priest magic anyway. I’m going instead to focus on my vision of Hedge and Blood, er, Ritual Magic afterwards. Regardless, here are the Hermetic Power Words.

Power Word
Resist:None
Duration: 1 rnd/level
Casting time: -0
Effect: Special
Range: 100 yards, single target
School: Hard Knocks
1st circle: Sting, 1 hp damage
2nd circle: Deaf (can’t hear)
3rd: Blind (can’t see)
4th: Stop (can’t move legs)
5th: Mute (can’t talk or cast)
6th: Confuse (act randomly)
7th: Stun (unable to act except passive defense)
8th: Kill, 40 hp damage

Spell

Mark, the title of that post is exactly right. The 4th level spell is a 'jokey' spell mainly designed, far as I can tell, for out-of-game purposes. Otherwise, it's a Dispel Magic. It seems so system- and DM-dependent that is so vaguely worded that it could change Geases, Wishes, and demonic summoning pacts.

And yeah, I got that the 1st level spell is a tracer, see below. 1st level no save ain't right. There's nothing PCs hate more than no save spells. Give them a die roll, make it at -4, but to just pull things on players tweaks them out-of-game. (I rarely ambush a party, I usually always ask for alertness and perception checks, else the cries go around the table.)

Anyway, this is also a DM-dependent spell. In my games, if a PC wants to follow/find another PC, he just does it. I don't have people lost in town or in mazes. Following an NPC? Almost never done in any of my games. Certainly not an NPC you have to touch and then you only get 10 minutes to follow him.

Paul, can you tell a story? What's the best use you've put this spell to? I'm not trying to be snide, I'd like to know.

...

In doing all of this, you have to ask not 'is this spell neat', but 'would I mind out-of-game if this spell was cast on me'.

...

Spells like Fly, Knock and Wizard Lock, Water Breathing, and Identify are great because they open doors. (Literally.) So they work to expand the scope of the game, or the direct plot of the game. Dave had this great campaign where mage magic was just discovered, and 2nd circle spells (Knock) finally invented. Then this mysterious iron door no one could open, suddenly could be opened... that's how the campaign began, and it's one of the top campaign-starters I've ever heard. Divinations of all sorts fall in this category, in which the players and DM are working together to make the game more interesting.

Other spells like Fireball, Detect Magic, and Shield are just workhorses. Nuff said.

Conjurations, Summonings, and Illusions are great although systemically problematic. Nothing insoluble. But they should be nice, functional alternatives to blast magic.

Charms, spells like Contingency, and Hold Person are the real awful spells. They reduce the game fun for both players and the DM. Do you guys remember the Narbohring 'Otto's Seen Servant' spell? Dominate a zero-lvl guy no save. Systemically fine (basically an Animate Dead), good for some laughs, but horribly broken nonetheless. Contingency is mainly used to save special NPCs from certain doom. Basically that's the point of Paul's 4th level spell, right? To break Contingency, thus to kill 'unkillable' NPCs, and thus it's a spell that involves struggle between PCs and the DM for narrative control. Completely the opposite of a spell like Contact Other Plane, in which the PCs directly ask the DM for narrative expansion. I mean, would this spell get a lot of use changing Magic Mouths? When's the last time you had a Magic Mouth in a game? For me it was 7th grade.


...

For a similar reason, the Horology spells are going to be hard. They're long-duration stun spells, basicallly, taking PCs out of the game for real-time hours, maybe.

I think we should focus more on game- and narrative-expanding spells, Divinations and their ilk. I give you my version of wizard eye:

Create Seeker
Circle: 3rd
Resist:None
Duration 10 minutes/level
Casting time: -10
Effect: Special
Range: 100 yards/level
School: Conjuration
Damage Type: None

Conjures a small (6") imp-like creature. The creature has wings but no other limbs, an eye but no mouth, can fly, and has rudimentary telepathic communication with the caster, much like a familiar. It is mostly invisible (+8 penalty to perception checks to see it), is AC:3 due to size and agility, and has 0.5 hp/caster level. The imp is used as a scout and can report visual sensory information to the caster. Detect Magic and similar spells can be cast though it.
...

By the way, we should make a decision whether or not to have spells be called X's Spell. If we do, we're by default building a world around the system. I'm on the fence.

Welcome to the Potion... ...Greg Vrill sucks!

Paul, I like the Trace spell. I made a little change: the caster could see the trace, or anyone else that can detect magic. -I just didn't think it should cost the caster another 1st to see it.

And... here Rob is casting stones while he's in the house of 'summon xorn'.

I think Circumvention could be cool. It is just going to be a challenge to explain it clearly. Without a large set of spells, I don't really have any examples. Let me get it straight: Basically, if there is a trigger effect for a spell, it changes that spell's trigger, or maybe even its effect? For example, you could change when a Magic Mouth talks, and/or what it says? Take a look at Morgan's Vigilant Sentinel in v2.9, could it be applied there?

I am going to add Circumvention. I like it. I just want to make the text clear as day.

Keep sending them Paul. The more authors we have, the more interesting these spell lists are going to be. -I would have never thought of the spells you suggested. Please, get Dave and Chris to kick out a spell or two.

Paul

Wow, I'm suprprised that Rob of all people doesn't get how awesome that spell is. It's not faerie dust dude, it's a trace.

Let me explain. It can be cast so you can follow people. You can cast it on yourself so your party can follow you. You can cast it on others so that you can follow them. You cast it so that the trail it leaves is only visible to those with an active detect magic up. Sure it's not that awesome but it's first level and very useful in some situations. Being able to track people is incredibly useful.

If you don't think it's good, well we shall agree to disagree if you like. If I ever play in a table top game with you again give it to me, and I'll show you how good it is.

Summon Zorn?

Nael's Circumvention

Circle 4th? Resist: opposed caster check?
Duration: Instantaneous Range: 30'
School: Alteration Damage: None

This spell on a succesfull opposed caster check allows you to change the conditions of a spell already in effect. It can be used to change a keyed magic mouth or a contingency spell. It can change any one spells set conditions to something of the casters desire as long as it is a condition that could have been set when the spell was cast.

Great for all kinds of things. Good bye Contingency, or keyed glyphs, and lots of other bullshit.

Spell factory.

Yeah, I had a feeling. Either way, if you've got some notes on that PDF, send them.

Any spells better than 'Summon Xorn', -send them.

I guess it's me and my spellcraft.

One thing's for sure, I've got a new found respect for Gary Gygax. That guy had to type the whole thing!

Downregulate

You'll understand when I tell you that with DMing duties in high gear again, my time to work practically on DiDFact is rather limited. I'll contribute when I can, but my efforts are better spent thinking up ways to totally screw your characters over in a make-believe world.

And I don't understand Paul's spell. It makes some magic fairy dust drip off your sword? No wonder no one in your games uses it! Oh, no, I get it. It's no save, so you put it on another guy and follow him around or laugh at him behind his back or something. Huh.

...

I'm so in DiD mode right now that the best spell I can think up is a 5th circle Summon Xorn. It's a real summoning, there was a xorn somewhere, and now he's here. He'll hang out with you for one combat round or one hour of construction time per 100 gp in gold ingots you give him, max is 2*level in rounds/hrs. He's a tireless digger, for what it's worth.

Sorry.

Cool.

Yeah, maybe 2d6 is too much. It was 2d4 at first, since it sticks around, I'll change it back. I will also remove that armor thing. Good point.

I dig your spell. I'm adding it. I might reword it a bit, but I got it.

Thanks, Paul. You've made the first spell donation. I appreciate it. I figure I need to do about 500.

Where the heck is Godfrey? Tell him to make me a spell. This thing is going to be in print. Hardcover. -I'd be happy if every one of us made at least one unique donation. Maybe he's a monster man?

Spellforge of the........gnomes? Really?

your 4th level spell seems tough.
it's a duration area damage spell with no save.
It can be put where people already are, and the same round they take damage.
I don't know why a chainshirt would help protect a fighter, but a big fuzzy robe wouldn't protect a mage, just as well.

I would reduce the damage, I would make there be no damage dealt the first round as it comes into play, thereby making those tight areas with lots of people trying to get out more fun. I would remove the armor reducing the damage. Lastly I would talk about the fact that it obscures sight talking about the type of modifiers it would give to combat into or outof or within the steam cloud.

Don't get me wrong I like the spell, but if I wrote it up or a player submitted it to me I would have the above to say about it.

My Spell

Nael's Detectable Trail

Circle 1st Resist:None
Duration 10 minutes Casting time: -4
Effect: Special Range:touch
School: Enchantment Damage Type: None

This spell creates a magical aura around an object, a shoe, a sword, or anything that is dusted down with magic as it were. The effects of the enchanting is that quite often parts of the magical enchantment on the object drip off of the object and will fall silently to the ground. This drops are visible to anyone casting detect magic. The drops remain visible for the duration of the spell.

It's a great spell for following people and things.....I made it for a game I played in and loved having it around. Now I have it in the games I run, nobody uses it. Casting time I don't really know enough about your system so I just put a number in there. Range is touch but maybe it should just be close, like you could throw the enhantment a short ways, but then you might need to roll to hit, and that complicates things. I like it because you might even get some dumb mage to buy an object with this "exotic enchantment" on it.

The DiD Factory

Hey Rob, where's that PDF with the notes?

Weeek.

Yeah, I pulled the touch damage from the chart in the latest version.

Also, I remade Morgan at 9th level. Everything is really cool (I mean really cool. The ability/proficiency point thing rocks. Try a character!), except for his HPs. Weak. Maybe we need 2/level until 10th, and 1/level thereafter. -Yay or Nay?

Also, stop guessing and send me a spell. Yeah. One spell.

I am fine with 1 blast per circle, as long as they aren't just the same spell scaled up. Heck I think there should be 3 blasts per circle, each with their own peculiarities.

Bad touch

Mage blast dmg. Yeah, I'm saying I was wrong too. Hard to hit that balance just right. Other kinds of spells don't have to scale up- we don't need a Fly and Sleep spell for every circle. But we should have a Monster Conjuration, a blast spell, and a single target ranged spell at every circle. No, no touch spells. Gandalf never 'bad touched' anyone, he- well, Gandalf is a horrible example, because he cast Light, Pyrotechnics, and used a sword, and then he died and came back even more powerful.

(NB: Hey, that's right! He died and came back even more powerful. Just like Gregory Vrill and Abbey and most NPCs in most games/stories/stuff. There's great precedent then, ya know?)

Will think on this.

Save for half.

Save for half can make sense. It just needn't be the rule. The problem is that at high levels, just about everyone makes that save, which makes you ramp up the top end. That can make a spell wierdly destructive every once and a while. It's not horrible, but I like other creative variabilites as well.

Rob, your 4th blast suggestion was 2d4. That's 5 points. Paul suggested 2d6, or 7 points. I picked the middle. You were on the low end, chummer.

No, like I said. Not all spell effects should scale up. And if so, only modestly. -We agree I think.

I really dig summoning, or conjuring or whatever you want to call it, too.

Here, check out my new spell:

Steam cloud
Circle: 3rd------------Resist: None
Duration: 4 rounds---Casting time: -3
Effect: Special--------Range: 50’
School: Evocation----Damage type: Heat

The steam cloud spell creates a small cloud of hot vapor centered upon a spot of the casters choosing. Once created, the cloud cannot be moved by the caster. However, winds will move, but not dissipate the cloud. All those within the cloud will suffer 2d6 points of damage per round. The steam cloud is approximately spherical, with a diameter of 15’. Note, unless restrained, or impeded, most creatures may escape a steam could within one round.

Note: Armor will absorb damage from the 1st round of exposure to a steam cloud. However, as the heat of a steam cloud does not diminish, armor will not absorb damage from subsequent rounds of exposure.

Man, blogger formatting sucks.

Rob

First off, mage touch spells are lame. No mage should be wading into combat. Remove the concept entirely.

Second, magic doesn't have to scale up in circles. Paul's argument applies to every spell... what would a 6th level Haste look like? An 8th level Sleep spell? Actually, if you look at Fireball vs. Delayed Blast, the only real difference is removing the damage die cap. Most spells, when they 'scale up', don't scale in terms of raw power, just duration or range.

Third, using 1E as a model of anything sucks. That's why we all moved on in the first place. Let's leave dead dogs alone, so to speak.

Fourth, I like save for half. It doesn't mean you 'ducked the fireball', actually. It means you resisted the magical energies. Fireball in my view didn't create a physical explosion- it was magical energy. 'Ducking the fireball' is an easy/lazy way to describe it, but saving throws should still be in place. It lets characters who don't have a lot of hp, but survive on guile and luck, well, it lets them survive.

Fifth, yeah, True Strike is lame. Summoning though- in my game, 'summoning' was a misnomer. 'Gating' was true summoning, there's a guy somewhere else, and you bring him here. I differentiated w.r.t 'conjuration', which created a new thing. Basically like a physical illusion. I like Monster Conjuring I through VIII, I think they're the potentially the best and most interesting of the damage-dealing spells. Again, it's just a bit of magical energy crafted into a monster-like form for a short while. If you have problems with this, then all of mage magic is suspect- Identify? Feather Fall? Leave conjurations.

So, I'm a 7th level Mage. I haven't maxed out my spell circle progression, trying to be a bit more well-rounded. I cast my butchest spell, a 4th circle Fireball! And I do... 6 hp to about three targets? Uh, that's awfully fucking weak. We don't have to include Tenser's Transformation and Haste, but Fireball needs more kick behind it than that, actually.

Hmm.

Not too different.

Paul, good points. I compared your's and Rob's average damage progressions for hermetic:

Rob--------------Paul
1) 2.5/1.5--------3.5/1.5
2) 3.5/2.5-------5.5/2.5
3) 5.0/3.5-------8.0/5.0
4) 9.5/5.0------13.0/7.0
5) 18.0/9.5-----14.5/7.5
6) 22.5/18.0----20.0/9.5
7) 33.0/22.5----25.0/14.0
8) 50.5/33.0----35.0/18.0

Surprisingly, they aren't too different. Like I mentioned before, Rob takes a big leap at 5th. Otherwise, progression is nearly the same.

Anyway, rather than split hairs, I am going to propose these averages:

Missile-----Blast-----Touch
1) 3.0 ------2.0------ 5.0
2) 4.0 ------3.0 ------6.0
3) 6.0 ------4.0------ 7.0
4) 10.0 -----6.0 ------8.0
5) 15.0 -----8.0------10.0
6) 21.0 ----12.0 -----14.0
7) 28.0 ----18.0------20.0
8) 36.0 ----25.0 -----28.0

Note, these are just guidelines. But I think we are all close to this anyway. I am ammending them to v2.8. (Remember, averages are half the die max +0.5. 1d6 has an average of 3.5.)

Like Paul, I don't like save for half too much. I'd rather it be the exception, rather than the rule. -Only if it makes sense for the effect. However, more than save for half, I really don't like low level spells that scale up like crazy. If anything, just a +1 or +2 per circle of the caster.

Oh, I should mention. I haven't stated it explicitly, but armor is going to absorb all forms of physical damage, unless the spell says otherwise. 'Electical' or 'Energy' (such as MM) damage will not be absorbed, however.

Also, like Paul eluded to, I think we should be very careful when making spells that mimic combat abilities, armor, etc. I think D&D gave them too early. Although technically they don't seem too hard to invoke, the repercussions can be huge. Spells that mimic combat abilities should be scaled back.

Again.

I think it's incredibly important to think about what a spell is doing too. Summon Monster 1 is a joke to me. Or True Strike.

Summon Monster 1- It opens a gate, pulls a thing through that gate, and gives you mental control over it to the point that it will, well do any dumb thing you tell it to.


True Strike 1st level- which Rob is familiar with....At what level can you give the effect a duration....? Or cast it on someone else....?

2 horrible 1st level spells.

Paul

I think if damage is scaled like this then the most powerful character will simply be the spellcaster, and mundanes will be ass out. Mages would be the rulers of a world with this mechanic behind it, or there would have to be a setting device to address this.

That was the problem with 1st edition. Unless you had a DM who would give you a +5 avenger and a girdle of giant strength, any mage of 4th circle or higher was gonna kick your ass if they wanted to. When you have spells like this, one of the first things a mage is gonna ask is what level spell can I cast to improve my to hit, and my armor class, ignore armor and also attack with touch spells at range. It might be cool to have hermetic magic instead of having a progression that is this steep just have a general rule where maybe it goes something this

1 1d4+1 / 1d2
2 1d6+2 / 1d4
3 2d4+3 / 2d4
4 2d8+4 / 2d6
5 3d6+5 / 3d4
6 4d6+6 / 3d6
7 4d8+7 / 4d6
8 6d8+8 / 4d8

knowing that the mage who is casting a 3d6+5 touch spell is capable of ignoring the opponents armor, damaging the opponents enurance, and doing all that from range while invisible. It might even be worth thinking of magic instead of attacking Hit Points rather went after endurance itself. Sure maybe some truly physical attacks, but I would have them suck and be more like the spell shatter, or even knock, but with a physical damage rating applied to them as a secondary power if used on a person, that way mages have a way to do hit point damage by casting spells, but not needing to memorize, something as boring as "the spell that does the most damage for that level". Maybe you'd even run into a guy with shatter memorized before he was 15th level.

How many Hp do you expect a 12th level fighter to have, how much would it be affected by a 5th circle spell to attack his endurace, and how likely would he be to survive an attack not just from a 5th circle spell, but also a 3rd. How many rounds would it take that 12th level fighter to kill a mage who has a 3rd circle protection spell up, and some magic item that gives him damage reduction equal breastplate, but doesn't make him as easy to hit as that.

Is this a low magic situation or high? I think for D&D to be run properly it should be high, or fighters would just loose. They have to get items, but then those items can be used by mages.....

Just some thoughts after work. I'd also get rid of save for half on area effect damage to hitpoint type spells. I think moving to the safer part in a fireball is retarded. In fast I'd limit a lot of what mages can do and get rid of saves for half.

Yeah.

Oddly enough, these are pretty much in line with what I was thinking. I felt that the high circles were too low. Of course, that's not to say that every circle should have a spell that does that amount of damage/healing (that would be boring), but they seem good as limits or guidelines.

I actually had written up a little chart where fly was 4th and teleport 6th. -This is too easy.

I am going to add your chart as notes in the v2.7 appendix. Use em as guidelines. (5th and 6th circle missle might be a tad too much, and that 1d100 is crazy, but it is 8th...) If you are building, send a few spells at a time. -Not a list of 30, please. Or, post them one or two at a time.

I think stone spray is more or less in line with your chart. It's a 2-12 missle or 2-8 blast at 4th circle. Heck, I'll bump it to 4-16.

If we have Hold Person, let's make it less cheesy.

Oh yeah, let's hold off on ritual and hedge until we have these somewhat flushed out.

Spells: a stronger approach?

I’m thinking that your damage is actually too low. Maybe it’s best to start with priests. Basically, the highest priest spell at any given power level should be able to cure one guy up mostly to full.

PRIEST
1: Heal 1d6, Slow Poison, Light, Command
2: Heal 2d6+1, Cure Blindness/Deafness
3: Heal 3d6+2, Cure Paralysis, Hold Person
4: Heal 4d6+4, Neutralize Poison
5: Heal 5d6+7, Cure Disease, Atonement, Lesser Gate
6: Heal 6d6+10, Regeneration
7: Heal 7d6+15, Raise Dead, Commune
8: Full Heal, Resurrection, Gate

HERMETIC
1: Missile 1d4, Blast 1d2
2: Missile 1d6, Blast 1d4
3: Missile 2d4, Blast 1d6
4: Missile 3d6, Blast 2d4, Fly, Polymorph Self
5: Missile 4d8, Blast 3d6, Lesser Gate, Polymorph Other
6: Missile 5d8, Blast 4d8, Teleport
7: Missile 6d10, Blast 5d8, Limited Wish, Death Spell
8: Missile 1d100, Blast 6d10, Wish, Gate

Example: Stone spray

Stone spray
Circle: 4th Resist: None
Duration: Instantaneous Casting time: -4
Effect: Special Range: 90’
School: Evocation Damage type: Kinetic

Stone spray sends numerous fist-size stones out from the caster’s pointed finger at great speeds. As the stones tend to spread out as they travel, the diameter of stone spray is 5’ at 30’ distance, 10’ at 60’ distance, and 20’ at 90’ distance. Targets within 30’ of the caster suffer 2-12 points of damage. Those between 30’ and 60’ suffer 2-8 points of damage. Targets between 60’ and 90’ suffer 2-5 points of damage.

Not so bad, really.

Assuming no other abilities (which means you are weak and suck completely otherwise), you could have 5th circle at 7th level or 6th at 9th level. 5th circle averages 11.5 damage and 6th the same. Touch is tough for a wizard because he's in the mix with low hp and little to no armor.

Weak, no Con, no Hp characters will have 17hp at 7th level, and 19hp at 9th.

Lightning bolt did 24.5 at 7th level and 31.5 at 9th level. In 1st Ed, no Con mages would have about 17.5 hp at 7th, fighters 38.5 hp. -And that's a 3rd circle spell!

And then, there is armor absorption. And resistance.

uh

those spells look like a lot of damage for the amount of hit points people have and the armor class they have. Plus spell casters will always have usually their highest spell or very near it be a blast and then they still have other circles of spells. It's a lot of firepower.

Oh.

Those damages that are the same between levels assume something else is gained. Such as harder to resist, different damage types, etc.

If this doesn't work, I am going to do what I did before make abunch of stuff, and then come back to the table.

Look at it!!!

For hermetics?

Circle	Damage: range/touch
1	2-5/2-8
2	2-5/2-8
3	2-12/4-16
4	2-12/4-16
5	3-18/4-24
6	3-18/4-24
7	4-24/6-36
8	5-30/4-40

I now realize there is no great way to do this.

We would almost all need to be in the same room with lots of Mountain Dew. I think we can agree on damage guidelines for each type of caster, at the very least, and then make spells separately. We could then sort them out an alter them if need be.

Or, we could create one spell for each school for each circle for each caster. Once these are agreed upon, we could then make some on our own. -Then we could sort them out.

It keeps growing.

I wonder if I should post new verisons on a filesharing site. Or, maybe I'll make a gmail account and give everyone the password. I'd like to keep sending the newest version, but I hate to chum up everyone's inbox.

Anyway, I made wilderness survival. I also made two new combat abilities: disarm and counterattack. -I think counterattack is sweet. It's on v2.7.

I hate to ask, but can we start talking magic?

I propose we start with some spell skeletons. i.e. Max damage progression across circles. -That's not to say every circle has a spell that does this, but it's where the buck stops. Let's start with hermetic evocation, shall we?

I am going to make a spreadsheet for this stuff, and stir things up.

Another way to do this would be top down. Make a bunch of spells, and start adjusting them and placing them where we think they ought to be.

I'll try the spreadsheet first.

Let him roll, for god's sake man, let him roll

Well, just thank me in the traditional manner- with co-authorship. I feel sort of paternal towards ye olde skill system, you know?

I'm going through the pdf adding little post-it notes, I'll send it back to you. Dave made some good points, but I'll wait for him to repost his comments here before replying.

Mainly, though, I wanted to disagree on one point Dave made. I think you *shouldn't* ask yourself what kind of game you want to play. You should ask yourself what kinds of games anyone would want to play. Obviously, not everyone enjoys any one style or type of game. That was made clear in the DiDTT firefight at the end of the first campaign.

...

Oh, okay, I get Paul's thing now. Yeah, it's kind of lame to have to collect all the boy scout merit badges- rope use, fire building, flag folding, smores cooking- just to survive in the wild.

I like Paul's discussion of kids playing and rolling to speak persuasively in front of the king or whatever. Gets back to what I mentioned above- although sure, good role-playing should never be trumped by a die roll, could you imagine Maggie and Peter playing a game with Mike, and Peter speaking with such passion and insight that a Rhetoric skill is unnecessary? The guy's like 5 or something. Let him roll.

(Actually, I still agree with Mark that skills like 'rhetoric' and 'persuasion' are the most problematic in the game, even more problematic than trying to figure out the damn spell system. Maybe there should be an optional class of skills, that the DM can allow at his discretion?)

Yeah firestarting sucks.

I completely agree Paul. You should not need 5 skills to survive in the woods. New skills should be added only as long as they bring something stand-alone and useful.

As for world knowledge, it doesn't trump the other knowledges when it comes to specificity. -I indicated this in the descriptions. Your social studies class won't tell you where to get the best beer in Detroit.

I think we agree.

I am still open to new skills. I always will be, but only if they bring flavor, not water it down. In fact, I guess I need wilderness survival.

BTW, Paul. Send me your gmail address if you want updated versions. We are moving to spells soon, and I'd like your input if you have the inclination.

As an aside, I've got to thank you Rob. You can be a stubborn pain in the ass, but I like how the system is shaping up. Forged in battle shall we say?

Paul tries to make his position more clear.

What I meant was that if you have gaming....as a Cha skill, and seduction, and diplomacy, and leadership, and a comfort skill, and initimidate, bluff, yada yada.
Well, I think that's going too far. In my system I have Rhetoric, that's it. There are other Cha skills, but Rhetoric in my system is the characters ability to speak persuassively. I don't like it when a lot of skills overlap. I think having firestarting, fishing, herbalism, trapping, blah blah is a waste of points for the players. In my system there is just Wilderness Survival and it can do all that. Sure I have Alchemy too, there are some places I have overlap, herbs are one example. I just think that by joining a lot of similar skills together people can take more of the other skills. The skills are the tools. Fewer skills equals more tools because the characters can only buy some many skills. If they have to buy 5 of them just to live in the woods it's lame. If you have to buy 5 Cha skills just to be able to be charming in each of the different situations you could be in, well that seems similar. I can understand how it might change a bit from sitting in a bar drunk playing cards to going to a lords house....but I'm ok with that. I don't like having to buy etiquette, diplomacy, persuasion, bluff, haggling, acting, gaming, just to be able to say that my guy is really charming. As it relates to knowledge skills I think that is why most people just end up buying World Knowledge in the end. If they want to play a character who knows about the world they want to be able to take one skill to represent that, if it can be done. I still have arcane knowledge, and Martial, and Religious, and maybe a few others. Think about stealth. Why have move silent and hide in shadows...

I hope that helps you understand, where I'm coming from. Fewer skills which cover more area gives the players more for the buck/skill point.

Industrious nature?

I guess you didn't see the obliterate nonhumans proficiency. There's the balance. C'mon, dwarves can't use claymores, they've got claymore envy!

Nice that we have the Systemizer 2000. Thanks for your industry.

Magic sensitive: No awards, but ok.

The DiD Factory Combat Simulator

Nope, instead I built a little combat simulator. Has two fighters, 'A' and 'B' duke it out over tons of battles (like 10000, but you can do whatever). It's trivial but kind of neat: increasing B's dodge by one point leads to a clear ~10% increase in the number of battles won, for example, before the increase:

A wins 4950
B wins 4950
They tie 100

(A tie is when they both have the same init the last round and kill each other, just to keep it simple at this point.)

After the increase:

A wins 4400
B wins 5500
They tie 100

Increasing dodge by 4 leads to:

A wins 2250
B wins 7650
They tie 100

(I'm approximating the actual wins here, rounding a bit, but over many, many sets of 10000 this is about average.)

...

Okay, soon we'll be ready to start testing real mechanics. Ha! Eat our modern-technology-fuelled turds Gary Gygax!

...

Re: feyness.
How about 'Magic Sensitive' or something less totally gay?

And speaking of gay, so if you're non-human, you've got a +1 to something, a -1 to something else, but can see in the dark. Er, no, not quite. If it were me, I'd just penalize the shit out of nonhumans for being akin to furries, but I'll capitulate and pretend to sort of understand if someone wants to play Legolas of the Fair Folks. How about you borrow from 3E, and give humans an extra 2-3 prof points for beginning characters, 'to reflect their industrious nature'.

Whoa.

I thought 48 was a lot. Let's not set an arbitrary goal, eh? You've got good profs, send them my way. If they start getting to be like "balloon animals", I'm calling it.

I'm still waiting on that Feyness replacement.

100

Okay, 48 is alright. Let's shoot to double that. A cool 100 is probably good, and we should aim for about half as many ability skills.

Skillz.

Dude, we've got 48 different proficiency skills now.

Thinking thoughts.

Glad you got that ability/proficiency point thing. Yeah, I'll clarify. I'm proud of it as a solution.

1 hp/level straight-up seems a like fair resolution. I'll do that for now.

As for the 8 circles and 5 circles thing, I was thinking about the nature of the magic. Two types for hermetics, two for religious. I think ritual magic and hedge magic might be limited by their nature. As far as illusions go, 8th level ones are either ridiculous or too lame. -It just doesn't lend itself to high level stuff. Same with jinxes. These low level crafts seem to be the ones that get the most obsene if projected out over a lot of cicles. I thought a 5th circle top would make illusions make sense. Also, since shamans borrow their power, I think they ought to top out before a priest whom is the golden child of one specific deity. That's not to say 5th circle spells would be useless later. 5th circle is nothing to scoff at.

Balance doesn't always have to be in your face. A theurgist that runs out of circles to buy might start practicing that armor-use and with his rapier. At 15th, you might just find him casting in chainmail and cutting you down with a sword carrying a 5th circle enchantment.

I'm not set on 5 circles, I am just asking you to keep an open mind about it. I think Gary had "1st level magic-user spells" as a 7th level illusionist spell for a reason.

I should also mention that I am making an effort to make low leve spells interesting enough that many of them will be used at higher levels. Not necessarily due to their damage potential, but due to some other quirky things that aren't duplicated by high level spells.

As for names, I like ritual as ritual, because that's what it is. Blood magic sounds cool, but what if you are the Good Witch of the North? Priest magic might be better named 'faith magic' because that's what that is.

Feyness. Alright Mr. Thesaurus, give me a better one. Sixth sense?

Feyness and fairness

Okay, still: why are you not giving out prof points or health points after 10? I don't agree. Also, after 10th level do you gain 0 hp/level, or no hp/level? The difference is, what if I have a 17 END, giving me +1 hp/level. When I get to 11th level, I ordinarily don't gain any health. Since I have a +1 bonus, do I now gain 1 hp that level? Or is it still none?

Oh wait, wait a sec. You can spend ability points as prof points, but not vice versa. I got it now. Okay, actually, I like that system. You should make a footnote to the table reminding people of that fact.

Still, I'd get rid of the mid-range 2 hp/level, and just give out 1 hp every level straight up.

...

I'm wondering about the relative balance between stats. Suppose three fighters meet. They've got 10s down the board, except one guy has a 20 STR, one guy a 20 AGI, and one guy 20 END. Do the bonuses from their stats all effectively cancel each other out?

For example, a +1 bonus to your AC is effectively cancelled out by a +1 bonus for me to hit. That's fair. And I guess, a +1 bonus to hit (+5%) should be offset by +5% hp.

Wow, you know, we could write some really simple computer code to test stats and abilities. We could just Monte Carlo it... have two warriors, A and B, face off something like 10000 times, and adjust stat bonuses and skill modifiers to achieve a tight balance. I'll try coding something in Matlab tonight.

...

One reason I like CHA is for symmetry. Game systems should display a level of symmetry that reflects the balance intrinsic to the system. By which I mean, if mage magic is tied to IQ, priest magic should be tied to CHA. 8 circles of mage magic, so 8 circles of priest magic. By the way, there should also be 8 circles of hedge and ritual magic. In the skill system, nothing should be intrinsically better or worse. Limiting to 5 circles is kinda lame. And I like replacing 'priest magic' with 'ritual magic', and 'ritual magic' with 'blood magic'.

...

And, 'feyness'?












Come on.

Monkeys.

Well, let's get this flushed out, make some characters, and see if the health points are where they need to be. I do like plenty of HPs to be somewhat optional, however. Maybe you'd rather read ancient history and write poetry. Low HPs should be an option. My Hector straight-fighter example had something like 42 HPs at 9th level. -That's not too shabby. In v2.6 I did make the endurance bonus a little more forgiving.

As it stands, an unmotivated Endurance 10 character has 24 hps at 10th level. That's the bottom rung. I guess that's the same as d4. A Endurance 15 character would have 39, better than d6. However, don't forget the armor thing. -I think play-testing is in order. Armor made a real difference when Ed and I were rolling some combats. You might be surprised. Mages could feasible wear leather. -Or magical rings, robes or bracers might do the same. I am not saying HPs don't need adjusting, I am just saying some testing is in order first.

Besides, I like the notion that characters might be fragile lacking their plate mail or bracers of defense. -Put me in a suit of plate mail, hit me with a mace, ouch. Take off my plate and do it again...

And, there is the real possibility that casters might use spells for protection too.

As for magic and damage, I agree 3rd level fireball is ridiculous. I think we could possibly add an innovative element to the game here. We don't want spell damage to be utterly predictable, nor do we want it to be arbitrary. Maybe is should grow in spurts: Circles 1 and 2 not much difference, 3 and 4 some more, 5 and 6 even better, etc. We could then make some other elements, such as protection or magical travel grow in alternating spurts 1, 2 and 3, 4 and 5, 6 and 7 etc. -Spread out the love.

I do think that spells could increase in potency based on the caster's circle, but only minimally. -Not "1 die per" like fireball or MM. For Heal Minor Wounds, I made it d6 +1 per circle. It doesn't really increase the overall potency too much, it just makes the spell more reliable. -I think that's what a more experienced caster might be able to get out of a spell.

Another thing to consider when we make damage spells is resistance. One way to work damage spells up is not to just tack on dice, but to make their damage harder to resist.

Low hp is problematic

Thanks, just trying to expand the circle of the possible in the skill system. I don't think the details or balance of skills matters at this point, just that there are a lot of them to give the general feeling that the system allows for lots of character options.

...

We need to think more about the ramifications of having low hp. In particular, how does spell damage scale up? This is the fundamental metric for what a 3rd circle or 7th circle spell looks like. No way Fireball is a 3rd circle spell: 10d6 damage is basically a nuclear weapon if the best fighters have 25 hp, on a good day.

I think version 1 of your system should be called "Resurrection: The RPG". I imagine that not even at high levels, but at mid-levels (8+), since damage-doing abilties scale faster than hp acquiring, and it used to be possible to be an 8th echelon arch-mage/high-priest, that combat at this point was all about raising the dead fighters back up after every horribly lethal combat.

It's still a problem, only now you've made it harded to acquire high level spells. The problem remains: damage dealing scales faster than hp gaining. Who the hell is going to spend all their precious skillpoints on hitpoints? God, what a waste. Maybe buy one or two along the way, but by the time you start to need hp, just buying one or two isn't going to help.

Anyway, the priest healing spells set the scaffold for priest magic, and parallel mages' abilties to dish it out. So it comes to the mages. What's the 1st level damage spell? Probably something that dings for 1d6. What about the higher levels? What's the ultimate damage dealing spell?

If the damage scales linearly with spell circle (xd6 at xth circle), that punishes mages at higher levels, as it becomes harder and harder to cast and acquire the higher spell levels (xp scales up and skillpoint cost slightly scales up). If it's linear, a mage is better off casting six 1st circle than one 6th circle, which seems silly.

It's not quite so simple, because you'll want to take in blast radius (person-affecting vs group), potential penalties to saving throws, etc. 8d6 vs one person is very different than 8d6 fireball. What about caster level? Seems like with the way you've got spell slot acquisition, caster level dependent variables are minimized, which is fine.

Chaaaaaaaad.

Contacts: Ok, I like contacts. I am going to keep local knowledge, but add contacts as a different prof. Local is static, contacts dynamic, etc.

Haggling: Yes. Gambling: Ok. Leadership: Ok. Intimidate/Cheer: Ok. Performance: Already added. Distract: cool. Animal Handling: I'm adding it as a general skill (Let's not go to the mat on this, eh?). Demonic bargaining? Hmm... maybe not yet. Hypnosis: cool. Cool head: not too necessary, you can already improve willpower. Meager: Maybe this is disguise as I have defined it, we'll see.

Ok, it looks like you got at least 8 Cha skills in there, Rob. Thanks, nice suggestions. They are all the 'passive' non-roleplaying kind of skills I was looking for. Oh, and yes, Cha boosts priest and shaman spell numbers.

As for "let's get crazy", I don't want to get too crazy with profs. I made 'feyness' last night. -A version of Paul's awareness. It allows a character to sense magical or extraplanar influences. At that point I started thinking about telepathy. However, psionics never really worked too well, skill points or otherwise. I still don't totally understand why to be honest. Anyway, at this juncture, I am holding off on prof psionics. -Maybe we could add an expanded skill list including psionics in the GM section as an optional rule. We'll see.

As for critical hits, I've been thinking about them. I don't consider the ability list complete. -Especially for fighters. I've been bouncing some ideas around, and I'll shoot them at you soon.

I agree with Paul's statement so far as that skills ought not to overlap much at all. Otherwise, things get messy and ill-defined. Of course, I don't want to limit them so much as to create a narrow set of character possibilities.

Sorry about the free health points, but they are gonna stop. They only cost 6 each, so at higher levels you could buy 3 per level (Maybe 2 if I change prof points). Or, bump up your Endurance, and you still get free ones each level. -This is one measure to keep the fighters one step ahead at high levels. Not too harsh if you ask me.

As far as diminishing proficiency points, I considered it a reward of level advancement to be able to buy profs or abilities at your discretion. 20 ability points could still be spent entirely on profs. Still, your suggestion of 5 prof points per level is easier to explain. -I'll consider it.

Once again, thanks. Those are some good Cha skills. -fucker. :)

On beyond CHA

Local Knowledge should definitely be a CHA skill. The IQ nerd might know where George Washington slept, but he won't know the hottest bar in D.C. Like I mentioned, 'Contacts' was a potentially great aspect of Shadowrun.

Haggling is a fine CHA skill. Roleplaying bartering is the WORST and unfun. Just make your roll, take your goddamn money and go. Haggling is anti-roleplaying, it's far better to make a check.

Gambling. If you believe in Pick Pockets and Haggling, this is the same kinda skill. Gaming could be the alt IQ variant of this skill- poker vs. chess. Better handled in game as a die roll rather than playing out a game of chess.

Likewise, Leadership is good. I'm talking about raising a peasant army. Henchmen get used if there's a workable system for it- the Leadership feat in 3E is one of the best, as it brings in new friendly NPCs, always difficult in a game. Roleplaying should be part of this to some degree, but that's true for most skills anyways (Disguise, Pick Pocket, Alertness,...).

Intimidate and Cheer. Nonmagical Curse or Bless, maybe alter initiative instead. Decreases foes' morale for the former, increases allies' morale for the latter. Maybe Jimmy Swill wouldn't do it, but other chars would; this is a lot like the 3E Bard.

Singing/Dancing/Performing. In addition to their fluff value, could be used for augmenting sleep/charm spells. Again like 3E bard.

Distract could be a related skill. Could augment thief abilties or again affect other die rolls like init or saves. Skills like this would allow me to make my fuckin' Enchanter, finally. Enchanters could be great, but suck in games compared to blast mages. Time to remedy that.

Animal Handling. Oh yeah. Not IQ, not STR, not END, not AGI. This is 100% CHA.

Demonic Bargaining. Actually, instead of an Enchanter, the Summoner should be the boss mage. There's a time to roleplay demonic negotiations, but for a guy who does it routinely in combat, systematizing it makes it functional.

Hypnosis. Extract information or implant false memories into a captured foe.

Cool Head. Resistance to mental spells.

Meager. Not seem like a threat- DM rerolls if foe is targeting you. Or, the opposite- Insult, could make a foe target you.

Also importantly, CHA gives a base to nobility and priest classes.

How crazy do you want to get? It's pretty crazy to think that with skills alone, someone can get three attacks in a round. What about CHA-based abilities or skills for Telepathy? Or direct Summoning? Or, Saints never had to 'cast' to speak with God... God talked *to* them. A 'Hear Voices' skill for prophets. 'Presence', which is like a non-magical Sanctuary. No one mugs Gandhi because he cast a magic spell. They don't mug him because he's mother fucking GANDHI. 'Reputation' could have 'Circles' just like spells do. I'm just trying to get away from Fishing-like skills and make the kind of games and characters more interesting.

Look, you need to step back I think. Just because you don't personally like something doesn't mean it shouldn't be in there. I never really thought Iron Cloth was a cool skill, or good or useful. But I added it just to expand the list- to show the sorts of things that *could* be done with skillpoints. Not specifically but generally. Honestly, who the fuck cares about the Fishing skill? I've had several players with cool character ideas, but the system support just wasn't there, and ultimately, it was the blast mage and the butch fighter that end the campaign, every time.

When I added the 'Critical Hit' skills to the system, it gave fighter types an end point. A skill to acheive that actually meant something- that you've hit the peak of the art. I'm not seeing that here outside spellcasting.

I think it's silly to think other people are going to use this system wholesale. What's not silly is to think that some DMs out there might steal some novel ideas from it. They're not going to steal goddamn 'fishing' or your encumbering rules. At least I wouldn't, I just look for cool skills, abilities, and new ideas for magical systems.

I don't understand Paul's sentences "I like reducing the number of skills in my game as much as I can, while still having as many of the options mapped out that players may want to take advantage of. I like fewer skills because it gives the players more tools. " I'd nderstand giving the players more skills to increase the numer of options, naturally. How does fewer skills equal more tools? What do you mean by 'tools' anyway?
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Now onto other problems. Why do you stop getting prof points? That seems retarded. I can't learn to make armor or about the other planes when I start getting powerful? Total ad hoc mechanic... remove. Just give like 5 prof points each level.

Likewise, just give one more health point every level. It's fine. I'm not sure why'd you be concerned with pseudo-realism in combats for 15th level characters anyway, when Raise Dead gets tossed around liberally.